Gun Violence Prevention

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This week, Incorruptible Mass explores what we can do to prevent gun violence here in Massachusetts. We'll have a discussion with Massachusetts Coalition to Prevent Gun Violence CEO Ruth Zakarian about recent legislation and an upcoming referendum at the state level, the difference between focusing on gun violence and gun control, and what we can do to make our communities safer places to live.

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Transcript

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Anna Callahan

00:00:00 - 00:01:08

Hello and welcome to Incorruptible Mass. Our mission here is to help us all transform state politics because we know that we could have a state and a state legislature that truly represents the needs of the 7 million of us who live here. Today we have an amazing discussion with our special guest Ruth Zakarin, and we are going to be talking about gun violence. And a referendum that you may have to deal with. So we will talk a little bit about the history and a bill that did pass recently through the legislature. We'll be talking about the opposition that is putting forward this referendum. We will talk about national implications, as well as the coalition that they have put together, and some really interesting things to think about about gun violence versus gun control and the way that it deals with the carceral state. But before we do that lovely discussion, an important discussion, I am going to have my illustrious co-hosts introduce themselves. And today I will start with Jordan.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:01:09 - 00:01:22

My name is Jordan Berg Powers. I use he/him and I live in Worcester and in an urban city. And so this is an issue that intently I have to deal with and I'm excited for the conversation.

Anna Callahan

00:01:23 - 00:01:24

And Jonathan.

Jonathan Cohn

00:01:24 - 00:01:35

Jonathan Cohn, he/him/his. I live in Boston in the South End and have been active on various progressive issue and electoral campaigns here in the city and state for over a decade.

Anna Callahan

00:01:36 - 00:01:59

And I am Anna Callahan, she/her, coming at you from Medford, where I am a city councilor. Very interested in this discussion. And I am going to go ahead and turn it over to Ruth if you want to talk to us a little bit about yourself, how you got involved, as well as the Coalition to Prevent Gun Violence. As a start, that would be great. And then after that, we'll dive into the referendum.

Ruth Zakarin

00:02:00 - 00:05:12

Terrific. Thank you. And thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be with all of you and to have this conversation. So just some gratitude to start with. But again, my name is Ruth Sakran. It's good to start with gratitude and to have a whole lot of it to hand out. So that's great. So again, my name is Ruth Sakran. I use she/her pronouns. I'm gonna be wearing two hats for the purposes of today's conversation, but I'm gonna start with my coalition hat. So I am the CEO of the Massachusetts Coalition to Prevent Gun Violence, which is something I'm very proud to say almost 7 years after I took that role over because I'm about to hit my 7th anniversary next year, which is kind of wild. Yeah. And just to get into a bit of who I am and how I got into this issue, So I'm a trauma clinician and survivor advocate by background. I spent all of my adult years working with survivors of domestic and sexual violence prior to coming to the Coalition. Started in Camden, New Jersey, but when I moved up here to Massachusetts, my first role was at the Elizabeth Stone House in Boston. Spent most of my years working in Brockton, and during those years supervised all of the program models from shelter, batterer's intervention— we don't call it that anymore, but Child Witness to Violence, community-based advocacy, court-based advocacy, rape crisis, and just worked with families, children, adolescents, adults impacted by horrendous interpersonal violence. And that work brought me in close proximity to the issue of guns and gun violence, working with survivors who were being threatened and harmed with guns, worried about their safety because of abusers' access to guns. For the 11 years that I worked in Brockton, my program was a landing spot for children in the aftermath of a domestic violence homicide. And so I worked with kids in the immediate aftermath of losing a parent to a DV homicide, most often perpetrated with a gun. And I could tell lots of stories about that. We don't have time today, but it was really sitting in that close proximity to that trauma that made me think, how do we change this narrative? And what does safety look like in this country, in our neighborhoods, but also in our homes? And that no child should have to bury a parent lost to a DV homicide, and no parent should have to bury a child lost to violence either. And so that's a big part of my why. Another big part of my why is I'm also a mom of twins who were born on Valentine's Day. And I mentioned that because their 16th birthday was the day the Parkland shooting happened. And because they were in a national youth group, they had a friend who went to school there. And it was a moment of it's their birthday, but they wanted to make sure that their friend had survived. So that was also a real moment for me of like, why is it like this? And I got itchy. I got itchy. Trauma response is incredibly important work, but I started to ask the question, how do we prevent the trauma from happening in the first place?

Anna Callahan

00:05:13 - 00:05:33

Wow, incredible story. I mean, really incredible work. And what a worldview to have before you begin working on gun violence prevention. Do you want to tell us a little bit about— I didn't mean to interrupt you, but do you want to tell us a little bit about the referendum?

Ruth Zakarin

00:05:35 - 00:07:58

Yeah, for sure. So I'll put my second hat on, which is chair of a committee called Vote Yes for a Safe Massachusetts. And we, this committee has been formed to protect some very, very important legislation that we got passed in 2024. So before I talk about the referendum, I'll just give you a quick snapshot of that legislation. A whole lot of folks came together to advocate for updates to our firearms policies, both in terms of how we regulate guns, how we think about community violence intervention and the funding for it, understanding where guns are coming from, keeping up with new technology, Broad coalition of folks came together to advocate for this bill, did a lot of work with folks at the State House, and want to appreciate both Senator Cindy Cream as well as Representative Michael Day, who are primary people that we worked with on this legislation and got it to the finish line in July of 2024. And it's called an Act to Modernize Firearms Laws. And it both again addresses the guns themselves. It addresses how we think about funding community violence intervention. It addresses data and research, all the things that we know we need to move the needle on gun violence. Everything from regulating ghost guns to having a public-facing data dashboard for the data that we're collecting from guns in the aftermath of a traumatic event, and a whole host of other policies too. And we were very excited to get this passed. It's an incredibly important piece of legislation. And about 2 weeks after it was signed into law, and it was a great 2 weeks of celebration, we found out that the local arm of the NRA was collecting signatures to put a question on the ballot, which has now been certified. It is on the 2026 ballot. It is the only referendum question. I think we'll talk more about that later. and it seeks to repeal this legislation in its entirety. And I can say more about the opposition as well, but I'm going to start with who we are in the world. And we are, again, Vote Yes for a Safe Massachusetts, because this work is about keeping our communities, our schools, our children, and our homes safe. That's what the work is about.

Jonathan Cohn

00:07:58 - 00:08:19

And I want to underscore one point that you just made there, that people probably are reading in the news about all of the various ballot questions that we might see In November, this question is the one that we are guaranteed to see on the ballot. We might have as many as 12, but this is the only one that we know this is on your ballot in November. And it's important for you to be paying attention to accordingly.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:08:20 - 00:08:28

And that you have to vote yes, which is counterintuitive. So you need to affirm the decision to keep this really incredible piece of legislation. Exactly.

Jonathan Cohn

00:08:28 - 00:08:37

The way I describe that is it's like it is then the people of Massachusetts get to vote on the law. And so we want— and so vote yes to keep it.

Anna Callahan

00:08:37 - 00:08:40

So it's not a repeal. It's not like vote to repeal.

Ruth Zakarin

00:08:41 - 00:09:21

If you vote no— so the way the question will be worded is, do you vote yes to maintain this legislation or keep this legislation, or do you vote no to repeal? It is a little counterintuitive. But just to highlight John's point, it is the only question we know for sure is going to be on the ballot. It is also the only question that is a referendum, not an initiative. So it's not initiative initiating a new policy. It is a referendum on something that was already passed through our State House and whether that already passed law will be maintained, again with a yes vote, or whether it would be repealed, which would be a no vote.

Anna Callahan

00:09:22 - 00:09:35

I want to pause for a second and just— Jordan, I know you have things to say about the bill that passed. So before we go on to talk about the opposition and other things, like, if you guys want to talk a little bit about the legislation that we managed to get through.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:09:36 - 00:11:26

Yeah, I guess the first thing I'll just say that the thing I'm proud of is it's actually a good example of how we can be leading. The legislature was brave here. It's responding to many attempts by, I think, the Supreme Court and the national government to take away things that we know are working. We should be proud that these things are working, that we have lower rate gun violence. And that is not by— it's not magic. It is in fact that we are proactively doing things to reduce violence and reduce the use of guns and violence and to make it easier for us to intervene, to stop guns from firearms, from being in hands of people who aren't going to use them in safe ways or use them on people. And so this is a good example of being brave. And we know I think we knew that there'd be some sort of challenge after it passed and they still passed it. Oftentimes, the legislature won't do things because they're like, "Well, I mean, somebody might challenge it." But that's what we want. We want you to lead and we want to defend our values. We think there's good ground to do, but this is what we should be doing. We should be leading and staying strong and saying, "Look how much this is working, America." This is also a good— When other states talk about how we can do gun violence prevention, what do they say? They say, look what happened in Massachusetts, look what's going on in Massachusetts, look at the rates in Massachusetts. And so we could be doing that for every piece of legislation to say, we could be leading, look how well it's working, look what it can do, look America. I think we should be proud of the work that you all did and the coalition did, and frankly, the legislature did on that to lead.

Ruth Zakarin

00:11:28 - 00:11:30

Yeah, for sure. I think it—

Jonathan Cohn

00:11:31 - 00:11:46

Oh, go ahead. Just super quick. I just want to underscore Jordan's point, like especially in the work that I thought was particularly impressive from the coalition of getting so many different actors on the same table about priorities that really gave that ability to make the legislature actually move forward.

Anna Callahan

00:11:46 - 00:11:59

And let's talk about that. Let's talk about the coalition. How did you put it together? Like, tell us. It sounds like it was really broad. Tell us some of the unexpected folks that ended up in the coalition to pass Tell us about that, Bill.

Ruth Zakarin

00:12:00 - 00:14:15

Yeah, well, the coalition has been built since 2013 when a group of volunteers came together in the aftermath of the shooting at Sandy Hook to say we want to build something in Massachusetts that prevents such a thing from happening here. So I just want to shout out that original group of volunteers, faith communities, community-based organizations that wanted to dream about the world they wanted to build. And we've been building this coalition ever since. And so we have over 120 member organizations from across the Commonwealth, but also national partners, Brady and Giffords, Everytown. They were all a part of this advocacy, very involved in this advocacy as well. Then again, community-based organizations, faith-based, other activist organizations, a lot of folks who share a common goal of keeping our community safe from gun violence. And a lot of voices were engaged in not just the advocacy for this legislation, but really putting together our wish list of what we wanted to see from it. And so we had these pieces around data and research. We had an expansion of extreme risk protection orders. We had this piece around really looking at gaps in funding for community violence intervention. We had regulating ghost guns that wasn't just about enforcement, but also making it so that manufacturers of these ghost guns selling kits, couldn't mail them into the Commonwealth, swimming farther upstream as opposed to just criminalizing folks for possession. We had a lot of people who had different feelings about what they wanted to see the state do, and we got a tremendous amount of good policy done with this legislation. There is always more, but as we always say, we cannot move the work forward without now protecting the strong foundation that we have built, and that we have built because a lot of folks came together to say, this is how we know we need to keep our community safe. There's no one policy that solves gun violence. There's no one person that has all the answers. So when you put together lots of brains and hearts and minds and you come up with lots of policies that are important, that's when you really create some meaningful change.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:14:16 - 00:15:52

I want to talk about that other piece too, because I just want to really highlight something that I'm really proud of the work that Ruth has done and the coalition itself, which is that when I was a kid, a lot of the ways we did this was we talked about gun control. We talked about controlling guns, and it was a really carceral outlook on controlling guns. And what it was was really just a reason to harass Black and brown communities. I, as a young man, had been stopped and frisked more times than I could count, or asked while I was driving if I had a gun on me, and having pulled over just for that, not for doing anything else except being Black in a car and the possibility of a gun. And so a lot of times in the past, gun control advocates really ran up against Black and brown folks who were just frustrated with that being the approach to it. I think the other piece that I want to highlight is that it just also wasn't successful. We had high rates of violence. Those communities also had lots of guns in them and had lots of guns being used on people at the same time that those policies and policing were in place. On the other side of it, Massachusetts, and in big part to Ruth, has taken a more thoughtful approach to really violence prevention. Talk about that in the law, and just also the ways in which we don't need to pit a carceral approach with our safety, which is also something that we desperately also want.

Ruth Zakarin

00:15:55 - 00:15:56

Yeah, thank you.

Anna Callahan

00:15:56 - 00:15:57

We would love to hear your thoughts.

Ruth Zakarin

00:15:58 - 00:17:21

Yeah, thank you for that. And I think it's a really important conversation, and it's something that I asked a lot as a question when I started, but I still ask as a question. How do we think about gun violence prevention, which doesn't just rely on carceral responses? And what does it look like to sort of dream differently about how we build safer communities? And so we actually don't use the term gun control at the coalition. We talk about gun violence prevention. We talk about safety, as it isn't just about controlling either people or access to guns. It's about what actually prevents violence from happening. And how do we both think about the gun guns themselves, but have a real lens on the root causes of how guns are landing in the community, why people pick up guns to begin with, why don't folks feel safe. And trying to hold all of those things is— and we're also thinking about gun violence as a public health crisis as opposed to a policing crisis or public safety specifically. And thinking about sort of all the determinants of health and wellness, that's really the approach that we want to take. And that was also the lens that went into what the pieces of this legislation look like is not just relying on enforcement, but thinking about prevention.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:17:22 - 00:18:03

And I think the other piece that I really appreciate is the upstream as well, thinking about not just making it because a lot of I just think fundamentally a progressive approach is rarely personal rights taking away and responsibility approach, but rather an upstream and societal approach, and often a corporate approach, like saying that there are actors that we need to think about and not just individual people. And so if you could just talk also, I think the way that you, the regulation of ghost guns and some of those things, I think are also upstream approaches that I think are guideposts for a lot of the ways that we should be thinking about when we're when we're doing regulation in a holistic way.

Anna Callahan

00:18:03 - 00:18:07

And when you answer that, can you talk a little bit about what are ghost guns? Like, tell us a little more about it.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:18:07 - 00:18:08

Yes. Oh, yes.

Anna Callahan

00:18:08 - 00:18:10

We've been talking about ghost guns, and I'm like, let's break this down for folks.

Ruth Zakarin

00:18:11 - 00:19:08

Sure. So let me start with that. Ghost guns, there's sort of some nuances to this, but it basically refers to somebody assembles a gun in their home. It is unserialized, therefore untraceable, and considered a ghost gun. And there are different ways that that can happen. Folks may remember a story from a few years ago about this mill in Littleton where people were selling the components of a gun that folks could assemble at home. But it also refers to kits, up to 80% of the parts of a gun in a kit mailed to your home. You assemble it at home, again, unserialized, untraceable, and a ghost gun. It is now those kits, the components are now considered a firearm, so you cannot mail them. So instead of just enforcing or criminalizing possession, we're now making it more difficult for the folks who are making a lot of money off of these kits to mail them into the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Anna Callahan

00:19:09 - 00:19:09

Right.

Ruth Zakarin

00:19:09 - 00:19:46

So again, really trying to swim a little farther upstream is just one way that we— one of the ways that we really try to focus on not just penalizing individuals, but investigating policy and practices that ultimately undermine safety. And the only the last piece that I want to say to you, which you'll hear from the opposition, this whole piece around how we're trying to take everyone's rights away. This legislation doesn't disrupt a legal pathway to gun ownership, but it does put guardrails in place.

Anna Callahan

00:19:48 - 00:20:07

Well, you so you brought up the opposition. We would love to understand a little bit more. You said the NRA, like, where is the funding coming from and who are the people in Massachusetts people and organizations here that are putting this referendum forward and trying to undo the gun violence prevention work that you guys have done?

Ruth Zakarin

00:20:09 - 00:20:45

Yeah. So a bit about the funding. We know that a lot of the money that came when they were first gathering signatures was actually from Smith Wesson. So it's gun industry money. So that tells us something right there. But the opposition, the ballot committee that they have formed, is called the Civil Rights Coalition, which is always a little painful for me to say out loud. They say that they have chosen that name because they are fighting what they call the worst civil rights infraction in Massachusetts history, which is also painful for me to say out loud.

Anna Callahan

00:20:46 - 00:20:48

I see Jordan laughing. Sorry, we can't hear it.

Ruth Zakarin

00:20:53 - 00:20:58

Yeah, for the people who are just listening and not watching, there's just many facial expressions.

Anna Callahan

00:20:58 - 00:21:00

That's for sure.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:21:00 - 00:21:25

I just imagine, like, I just thought, like, you know, my family came to these shores as enslaved human beings, but gun regulation is the worst thing that's happened. It's just like the nerve of these people. And like, you know, I think we came through Connecticut, I guess, in fairness, or Rhode Island, some state way back when in the— but like, you know, what are we doing?

Anna Callahan

00:21:26 - 00:21:29

Well, it's like, it's like the ship you guys came in and called, like, the Freedom Boat, you know?

Jordan Berg Powers

00:21:29 - 00:21:34

Yeah, yeah, right. I know, right? I know. It's just, what are we doing?

Anna Callahan

00:21:35 - 00:21:38

I like my civil right of not being shot, you know?

Jordan Berg Powers

00:21:39 - 00:21:42

I mean, also that. I mean, also that. Just the nerve of these people.

Ruth Zakarin

00:21:43 - 00:21:53

I mean, and you kind of hit on something that we have been talking about, is people have a right to be safe. People have a right to not be shot. Those rights seem sacrosanct to me.

Jonathan Cohn

00:21:53 - 00:22:02

Exactly. You talk about the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The first one is life. Good point.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:22:02 - 00:22:04

Let alone well-regulated.

Jonathan Cohn

00:22:04 - 00:22:05

Exactly.

Anna Callahan

00:22:07 - 00:22:08

Oh, yeah.

Ruth Zakarin

00:22:08 - 00:22:27

It's a little painful, but that's where we're at there. The other thing that I do want to highlight, because I think it's important to say out loud, is they also have a tagline that says, it's not gun violence, it's gang violence. So I really worry about the messaging with that too. Yeah, that's painful.

Jonathan Cohn

00:22:28 - 00:22:29

It's so subtle.

Anna Callahan

00:22:29 - 00:22:30

That's very subtle.

Ruth Zakarin

00:22:32 - 00:22:41

It's painful. So that's the opposition. And yeah, it's so racist.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:22:41 - 00:22:45

It's just comical. I think they just— oh my God.

Jonathan Cohn

00:22:45 - 00:22:50

It's the fascinating case because it's like when you're not really dog whistling, you're just shouting.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:22:51 - 00:23:04

Yes, right. Yes. You're just shouting at that point. Sorry, Ruth. I'm sorry to interrupt your very serious thing with my dealing with the macabre of deep-seated racism by laughter. But I don't know how else to respond to something that awful.

Jonathan Cohn

00:23:05 - 00:23:10

That it's like Jordan, as also being Jewish, the way that one—

Jordan Berg Powers

00:23:10 - 00:23:11

Yes.

Jonathan Cohn

00:23:11 - 00:23:13

The fundamental terrorists of the world.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:23:14 - 00:23:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the Jewish part of me pulling up for shirzies.

Anna Callahan

00:23:18 - 00:23:58

Yeah. And I will— we were talking a little bit before we started recording about how national politics is like the way that Trump talks about things is like influencing our entire culture and our children and their ability to, you know, to deal with things happening in their schools. But I think, you know, this is an example of that as well, that like They don't need to use dog whistles anymore. They can just be flat out racist. There's no verbal— the way that people are now allowed to talk because of our national politics has become just absolutely unacceptable.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:23:59 - 00:26:53

Yeah. I think the other piece that I think it also highlights, I think, to begin with this, which is a lot of the ways in which we we think about violence is so racialized. And in fact, with this thinking about prevention and thinking about violence prevention and thinking about it as a health crisis, I think really does better. It not only better aligns with what the data, what we know is actually happening, but it also just better gets at, you know, it's not just a good anti-racist tool, and it's not just good, like, to be good, like, all nice, but it actually better aligns with our goals, which is to keep people safe and keep people alive, right? And so, you know, I can say our household, my wife's cousin had a very visible violence because it was such a harrowing story that it, like, made the news because of the survival of the 3 daughters and how, like, almost miraculous it was. That's the reality of what's happening is that when you're talking about when they're being flippant and racist in these ways, but what they're actually doing is these are often interpersonal violence, they're relationship violence, they're domestic violence. Then there are also people who, if they didn't have such an easy way to make a finalized decision about themselves, that they might not make it, that prevention and intervention might be available to them. And so really, it's a health crisis in that way and a violence prevention crisis. And so the flippancy also is also, it's not just racist and macabre, which it's those things, But it's also just like really horrible because it hides the reality of what we're trying to do and how to keep people safe. And so the threat is not some, you know, some like, you know, 1990s TV gangbanger who's like a Black, who was me in the '90s, like saggy, short, saggy. Like I have, I joked I still had a pair of jeans that like for 20 years because they just, I got bigger, but they just finally started to fit, right? Because I was that kid. And like, you know, and like I was a kid in the '80s and the '90s that was like, you know, I was all— I looked like all of those things. And so that's what they want. That's what the vision they want. But that actually makes everyone unsafe because that's not the reality of what we're trying to prevent and how we're trying to keep people safe and the realities of this epidemic that's in the country. So sorry, but to talk a lot about it.

Jonathan Cohn

00:26:54 - 00:26:54

But yeah.

Ruth Zakarin

00:26:54 - 00:27:23

No, I so appreciate that. Yeah. And if I can just respond to that for a moment, because we talk at the coalition all the time about how does gun violence show up here in Massachusetts. Shows up in firearm suicide, which is actually the highest number of deaths from guns. Interpersonal relationships, DV, community-based homicide, which is often about interpersonal relationships as well. And all of those things are way more lethal when paired with easy access to guns.

Jonathan Cohn

00:27:24 - 00:27:24

Yeah.

Ruth Zakarin

00:27:25 - 00:27:48

So every country on the planet has all of these things. Folks who are struggling with their mental health, folks who are struggling with conflict in relationships, folks who have conflict out in the community. But only here in the United States do we have this rate of gun violence, homicide, death, because we are also a country that has more guns than people.

Jonathan Cohn

00:27:50 - 00:28:12

Yeah, because I feel like that puts it so well, because like, because the problem like that relationship problems in any different space of just general human relationships will be a universal. But in many cases, one can de-escalate them. And that the presence of guns decrease the likelihood of successful de-escalation.

Ruth Zakarin

00:28:14 - 00:28:15

Yeah.

Anna Callahan

00:28:15 - 00:28:31

So let's go ahead and talk a little bit about the campaign specifically. You said something about it being hyperlocal, and I'd love to just hear a little bit more from you about how that's going to affect the referendum and the way that people experience that?

Ruth Zakarin

00:28:32 - 00:30:17

Yeah, so we talk all the time about how this effort is for sure a hyperlocal campaign, but one that has national implications. And what I mean by that is we feel like we win this vote by the conversations that we have in every community in the Commonwealth. I'm out there at community events talking with folks. They do want to talk about safety. They're not always aware that this question is going to be on the ballot. They're not aware that we have folks trying to undermine policies that we know keep our communities safe. So once they know and then they're committed to voting yes to protect this, that's powerful. And it's also bringing up really powerful conversations about what actually works to keep our communities safe, which is of course not what we're seeing on the federal level. And in the context of that, we also know that the gun rights folks are coming for us here in Massachusetts because we are leading. Because if we continue to move this work forward here in Massachusetts, they see that as a threat. They see that as a threat to the gun industry. And they want to undermine what we're doing here because if they're successful or even if they come close, they're going to take this out on the road and try to also undermine policies that work in other states too. So as I'm speaking nationally about this effort, I want folks to know, don't sleep on Massachusetts. What happens here matters greatly, not just for the residents of the Commonwealth, but for the entire country. So we need to win this campaign, but we need to win it well with the right conversations, the right education, strong enough margin that we are sending a message to the gun extremists that it's not going to work.

Anna Callahan

00:30:19 - 00:30:23

Yeah, absolutely. You want to talk a little bit about the national implications?

Jordan Berg Powers

00:30:25 - 00:30:42

I just want to say, but also the other side, right? Like if we can, if this strong campaign and strong coalition and we come out and do the work to deliver a resounding victory, that also has the ability to send a signal to other states who are thinking about doing something. To be brave as well.

Jonathan Cohn

00:30:43 - 00:31:00

Exactly. It shows that this is popular, that you do it, you will be backed up, and it will have the public support and popular will is there. And that's so true because you need that in other states if they're debating whether or not they want to do that. The margin sends a message.

Ruth Zakarin

00:31:02 - 00:31:21

Yeah. And I think that is the national application. We can show other states what's possible. We can show that gun extremists are not going to come here and do this, that we are going to keep the conversation grounded in safety and what we know works. That's what we're going to show the rest of the country. That is what I'm determined to do with this campaign.

Anna Callahan

00:31:23 - 00:31:25

Amazing. How can people help out?

Ruth Zakarin

00:31:27 - 00:32:44

Yeah, so we have this terrific leadership team that's come together, getting a lot of support from Progressive Massachusetts, and we're very grateful for that. So thank you, thank you, thank you. But there's lots of ways to get involved. We are on socials. We're on Instagram and Facebook for now. If you want to follow the campaign, we do have a campaign website, Vote Yes for a Safe Massachusetts. I don't know if dropping that in the chat is helpful because it's a podcast, but we can get that. But if you Google Vote Yes for a Safe Massachusetts, you'll find us. And there are ways through our website to sign up to do lots of things, everything from get a lawn sign once we have a number for the ballot question will have lawn signs. There's ways to volunteer to help with canvassing and getting the word out. We have trainings called Spread the Word Toolkit trainings where we help folks understand the implications of the legislation, how to talk about this out in the world, and again, spread the word, spread the word, spread the word and build the base of supporters for the campaign. So there, and just talk to your folks. Having dinner tonight with your friends, tell them this campaign is happening. Tell them that we need them to vote yes in November to protect our strong gun violence policies in Massachusetts, that the state depends on it and the country does too.

Anna Callahan

00:32:45 - 00:32:51

Amazing. I want to see if we have any final words of wisdom from everyone.

Jonathan Cohn

00:32:51 - 00:32:55

My final word of wisdom is going to be, Anna, would you like to do mid-roll?

Jordan Berg Powers

00:32:55 - 00:32:59

I was thinking the same thing too. I was thinking the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna Callahan

00:33:00 - 00:33:49

Always, always happy to. Hey gang, you listen to this podcast, you watch it on YouTube, you don't find these conversations in other places. We focus especially on state politics and how you can make a difference here in Massachusetts. And you can support us by sharing this episode or any of our episodes with your friends. We also have a link below where you can donate to the podcast, and none of us get paid. All of that that simply goes toward our young folks who are just incredibly helpful in terms of editing, video editing, graphics, social media, all of that work that has to get done in order for this to get into the ears of the many hundreds or thousands of people who listen to it every week. And that being said, do I have any other words of wisdom?

Jonathan Cohn

00:33:49 - 00:34:29

I think my other final— thank you, wonderful job— is really the importance of paying attention and getting involved. As I noted before, we might have the possibility of up to 12 ballot questions. And what that means is there's going to be a lot of noise. And if you're listening to this, that means you're probably somebody who pays attention. And we need people like you and people like the people that you know to be those voices who are good validators, to explain to people what's at stake, that it's a clear yes vote, and that they need to make sure to We don't know the number yet. When we do, you'll find out, but to make sure that they vote yes and tell other friends to do so.

Jordan Berg Powers

00:34:31 - 00:36:24

My last piece of advice is just that if you're thinking about building a truly forward-thinking, people-grounded campaign, that this is the way to build legislation. It is legislation that isn't just carceral, it isn't just prohibitions, it isn't just asking personal, the cost to be personal individuals, but rather it's a holistic approach, right? It is some of those things, but it is also thinking about how are we educating people, how are we putting money into the hands of experts who know how to do prevention, who know how to have those conversations. It is based in, it is a broad coalition of not just sort of elites and people who know things, but also community groups, people who are on the ground, people who are affected, affected communities. It is legislation that is also dealing with corporations and dealing with bad actors and isn't just putting all the onus on us as individuals, but the people who are actually doing some of the harm. Too much of what happens in Massachusetts is putting all of it onto us, all of the problems onto us, all of the fees onto us, all the things onto us, and not any of the corporations or bad actors or any of the other people, and often isn't grounded in the people who are most affected. And so I just want to highlight that for me, what's exciting about the work in the coalition that's been built and why this is such a great piece of legislation is it's actually a guidepost for all the other ways that we can be tackling our issues in Massachusetts and the ways that this work can be done. And so that's why it's really just so important that we keep this, that we vote yes on this referendum, because it is just how I wish all legislation had happened and how all legislation looked. And so please do your part to make sure it happens.

Anna Callahan

00:36:25 - 00:37:09

My takeaway is the three of us who do this podcast every week, we clearly believe that the Massachusetts legislature is relatively obstructionist and obstructs a lot of the policies that are in the Democratic Party platform that the vast majority of people in Massachusetts want, but on this matter, they took the lead, right? This is one of those bills, one of those rare times when our legislature did a great job. Let's reward them. Let them know that you 100% are behind them when they do something like this, because that makes a difference for what they will do in the future. And I want to turn it over to Ruth and give you our final, final word.

Ruth Zakarin

00:37:10 - 00:37:58

Well, I wanna say thank you for having me for the conversation. This was really loads of fun. So hopefully you'll have me back and we'll talk about more stuff. But thank you too just for highlighting the importance of the work of safety and just what it's all about is keeping our community safe. I want for everyone to be able to walk through the world without fear of being harmed by guns. And I want them to be able to send their children out into the world without fear of what's gonna happen to them. And that's what this is about. And so I'm hoping that everyone will join us in sending a really clear message in November that we value safety here in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. And in the face of the harm that we're seeing on the federal level, we will continue to move the work forward here in Massachusetts. So thank you.

Anna Callahan

00:37:58 - 00:38:08

Well, we can't wait to have you back. Thanks so much to everyone, to our listeners as well and our donors. We love you all and we cannot wait to chat with you again next time.

Ruth Zakarin

00:38:08 - 00:38:09

Next week.