The Evil Tax Cut Question

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This week, Incorruptible Mass examines the campaign to lower state taxes that you've probably already heard about. We'll have a conversation with SEIU State Council Executive Director Harris Gruman about what the plan entails, what's hidden, and what would be so damaging to our state.

You’re listening to Incorruptible Mass. Our goal is to help people transform state politics: we investigate why it’s so broken, imagine what we could have here in MA if we fixed it, and report on how you can get involved.

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Transcript

ANNA

Hello and welcome to Incorruptible Mass. Our mission here is to transform state politics together because we know that we could have a state here in Massachusetts that truly represented the needs of the 7 million people who live here today. We have a very exciting episode where we will be talking about one of the ballot measures, the one that is about extreme reduction of income taxes. And we're going to be talking all about the groups that are behind this, how it could absolutely decimate the Massachusetts state budget. We'll talk about what they, what is, what is actually their true goal, which may not in fact be what, what this ballot measure is, as well as talking about a little bit of the history of this kind of tactic and it working here in Massachusetts. And we will end with how this is really about progressives being, being ascendant and how we're sort of winning here in Massachusetts and how you can help with this particular ballot question and making sure that it does not pass. But before we get on to that and to introducing our amazing special guest, Harris Grumman from the SEIU. Let me have my fantabulous co hosts introduce themselves. And today I will start with Jonathan.

JONATHAN

Hello, I'm Jonathan Cohen, he/him/his, joining from Boston in the South End and I've been active with progressive issue and electoral campaigns here in Massachusetts. Massachusetts for a little over a decade.

ANNA

Fantastic.

JORDAN

And Jordan, Jordan Berg Powers, he/him. I live in Worcester, Massachusetts and I've been involved in Massachusetts politics for 18 years, which, where did that go?

ANNA

Just a little while. And I am Anna Callahan, she/her, coming at you from Medford where I am a city councilor. Done mostly like local politics across the country, but state politics with these guys for a number of years, which is always a pleasure and I'm extremely excited to introduce Harris Grumman. Grumman. Grumman. Grumman. You Grumman. Sorry about that.

HARRIS

The Grumman said the 2M so the rich one, you know, I, I don't, we don't get anything from that.

JONATHAN

Right.

ANNA

Well at least I didn't say Grumman, Grumman and Grumman. But Harris, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself and then the organization that you're with that's working on this ballot measure.

HARRIS

Yeah, well, Harris Grumman, I go by brother or comrade and I'm with the SEIU Massachusetts State Council. SEIU is the Service Employees International Union which in Massachusetts represents 120,000 mostly very low-wage service workers, mostly in direct care like home care, child care, orderlies and hospitals that kind of thing, but also janitors, security guards, people who teach, you know, adjunct faculty who are one of the worst paid groups in the nation and so on. And so it's a great, great union. Very, very progressive and we're very proud to be fighting for justice for all people. But one of the things that we're really working on is this. Protect Massachusetts future, which is our ballot campaign to stop the ballot campaign of what I call the, the Maga Tech Bros. In Massachusetts.

ANNA

Absolutely fantastic. And we really want for people to understand. I know I've already received a text message about this saying, wouldn't you like lower income taxes? Sign up. And I was like, oh, no. So can you just lay out for people who may not have heard about it or who might have received a text message, what is this ballot question and what would it do? Like, in terms of the. There's two parts to it, right? There's tax cuts and, and the rebates were part. So if you could talk about those, that would be great.

HARRIS

Well, and remind me to get back to that text message because that actually is very revealing for what I want to say later about this. But on the other hand, yes, just to get down to the basics, they qualified two questions for the ballot. They did two separate ones because in the past, you know, our millionaires tax ballot question was knocked off the ballot because, you know, the court claimed that it covered too many subjects, meaning it raised a tax and said what it would spend it on. But, you know, but I guess they learned also that maybe that's a dangerous thing to do. So. But they have two separate ones. One would cut the income tax from 5% to 4%. Now, that doesn't sound like a big jump. It's 20% of the total. 20% of all the income tax would be gone.

ANNA

That's 5 billion, not just the millionaires tax. This is all income tax.

HARRIS

All income taxes? Yes. It would cut all income taxes, you know, the floor of the income tax from 5 to 4%. That's $5 billion lost every year. This, that's a very simple one. Anyway, what it does, the second one is more complicated. Back in the 80s, a group of kind of, you know, right-wing libertarian types like Grover Norquist put this thing through the ballot here to cap how much revenue the state could bring in. And it does it in a very insidious way, which is to say revenue can't be too much higher than wages and salaries. Well, that sounds like a, you know, maybe that's a good idea. The problem is most you know, almost half the income in Massachusetts isn't from wages and salaries. It's from capital gains investments by very wealthy people. And that keeps growing every year, which means revenue grows some every year, which means that this cap starts to kick in more and more often. And that cuts off government from being able to do the things it wants to do. Now, what they want to do is weaponize that, like, lower the cap a lot, and then, say, every time there's a recession, it gets lowered even more permanently in order to strangle government. I mean, strangle government's ability to invest in schools or health care or any of the things we care about.

ANNA

Oh, my God, This. It's crazy and terrible.

JONATHAN

I'd say, like the. Oh, and I finish.

ANNA

No, go for it.

JONATHAN

Oh, I was gonna quickly note, and it's especially important the. The thing around the tax cap law. If we've seen from, like, the many charts, I think people, like, people have probably seen over the years of how wage growth has not nearly kept up over the past few decades. But at the same time, because we're. Broader financialization of the economy, the cat. That capital gains portion will be, like, ever ascendant. So it's like something particularly responsive in a particularly abhorrent way to the current state of the economy. But back to Anna.

ANNA

Well, it's actually.

HARRIS

It basically says, as the rich get richer and the working people get poorer, well, even less money to invest in schools and.

JONATHAN

Exactly.

HARRIS

You know, it's really a really a fiendish idea of, you know, people who are greedy.

ANNA

People who are greedy. Well, let's talk a little bit. I want this in context for people in terms so that they can understand, like, what kind of hole is this going to create in our budget? Like, what are the numbers? You said it was 5 billion for cutting the income tax. What is the number for the rebate? And how does it compare to other things that, you know, we clearly think were terrible and had a horrible effect on the Massachusetts budget?

HARRIS

No, absolutely. We estimate about 2 billion a year, although that'll get worse every year. So when that actually hits 2 billion, we don't know exactly, but on the rebate program. But that's 7 billion. Okay, 7 billion that would be lost. That's twice the damage of Trump's big, ugly bill and the cuts it made to Massachusetts.

ANNA

By the way, can we just remind people this is Democrat, like, if. If this goes through the legislature, if this ballot measure, and we'll talk about this in the future, like, succeeds in forcing the democr. Overwhelmingly Democratic State legislature to, you know, cut taxes or whatever, to do what these people want. Like this horrible stuff that we're seeing from the Republicans. It will be Democrats doing this. So sorry to interrupt.

HARRIS

Well, and even internally. Yeah, we can't stop that if all those things happen. We're dealing with both of those things together because basically the Trump wing of business is pushing this through at the state level. Some of these people, too, are nominally Democrats, by the way, but some of them aren't. But, you know, but they are pushing this through, you know, on the ballot. That and the big ugly bill together is $10 billion lost every year to the state budget. Now, to get a sense of, like, how big a hole that is in the past 40 years, the biggest hole in the state budget we've had was during the great financial crash of 2008, 2009, and that was 2.5 billion. And that caused mayhem. I mean, we raised taxes to deal with it. We cut programs, we cut the things that people now are finding it impossible to live in the state because they don't have support for them. Child care, housing, public higher education. Sounds familiar, right? So we did all that and we survived barely 2.5 billion. This is 10 billion. Four times the damage of the worst thing we've seen. And this would be the worst thing fiscally in the state since the Great Depression of 1929.

ANNA

Oh, my God.

JONATHAN

And then just for like, the numbers there, the combination of like the federal cuts from the Trump administration plus, plus the two ballot questions combined. But it also reminds me of, I remember seeing like decade, decade and a half ago, a study of higher ed cuts that had happened across, around the country due to the, like due to kind of the Great Recession. And that Massachusetts as like a percentage was one of the, like, the biggest cutters of public higher education across the country.

HARRIS

And it's why public higher ed in Massachusetts is no longer really a road for lower income folks to get an opportunity in a career and get a good college education. It's become very expensive to go to our state schools compared to what it used to be and what it.

JORDAN

Yeah, we were the third most. We cut the third most in, in real dollars across. So 47 states cut funding to higher ed. Less or 46. Sorry.

HARRIS

Yeah, that's why we're the education state. We cut the most in education. You didn't understand what the measurement was.

JORDAN

Yeah,

HARRIS

that was a good thing, you know.

JORDAN

Yeah, yeah.

HARRIS

We're leaders.

ANNA

Jordan. Did were you. Did you have more thoughts about that?

JORDAN

No, no, just it's Just, yeah, just. I think we, you cannot stress enough how bad this would be across the board for everything we. You care about. And, and it's, and it's the thing that they do so well, which is that they break everything and then they go, I don't know who broke all this thing, but give us all your money. Like, it's just like the most classic, right? Like they, they do it for education, they do it for everything. They break it and then they, and then they, you know, then they count on the fact that the media will never provide context to anything that happens. And so they'll just be like, you know, you know, they'll re quote people as if they're just not. It's like, right. So, you know, there's never like, for example, I never see underneath the Pioneer Valley, every time Pioneer Institute gets quoted, there's never like a highlight that says, oh, all of their reports have been proven wrong. Right? Like, it's never, they said this thing would happen for the billionaires tax, and none of those things happened. It's like the media will never provide any context to any of the things they're doing. And so that's really, the fear is that, you know, I mean, it's one of the many fears is that like, if this, if they, if you force a situation where they have broken the state and then people have, and then the people responsible for fixing it are Democrats. Well, guess who gets blanked. It's like, like it's, it's this, it's the same thing over and over and over again. They break things and then they count on the fact that the media will never cover who broke it. They'll just, they'll just pretend like there's no clear thing somebody did this thing and then this thing happened. They'll never make that connection. And then they'll, and then they'll talk about it as if, like, I don't know how this got this way, but like, give us all your money.

ANNA

I feel like the way that they talk about it is like they break things and then they're like, look, see how bad government is? Government terrible. You shouldn't fund government because look how bad it is. But that doesn't happen until they like break it and make it incredibly horrible. And then of course, of course it's not going to be good.

JONATHAN

Well, I feel like. And this, this is, this relates to federal class and quick point and then get back to the ballot question discussion. It's. That speaks to like the particularly kind of horrific nature of the snap Cuts under the Trump administration, where it's for states that have high error rates, and you typically have a high error rate if you have a lot of understaffing. And if you get cuts because of the error rate, that means you'll have worse understaffing and a higher error rate and then more cuts and then creating a doom loop, which is, of course,

HARRIS

the intent called the death spiral, you know. Yeah, death spiral. They've done this with health care, they've done this with, you know, Medicare, they've done this with a lot of programs. So they put things in a way that, that, you know, basically incentivize the system and then they blame the system for it.

JONATHAN

Yeah.

HARRIS

But, you know, it's interesting here with this thing, okay, so we got this speeding locomotive coming down, we're all tied to the track called State of Massachusetts, and it's coming straight at us. The thing that's peculiar here is the people who are behind this are, like I said, they're like the Elon Musk wing of the tech industry and, and their allies. And, and the interesting thing is they, they actually don't want this to win at the ballot. They don't. So this kind of peculiar. I just set up this whole monstrous scenario. They don't care about that. So what do they care about? I mean, what are they doing this for? And they've been pretty explicit about it in the paper and so on. They did this to scare the state government into giving them what they want. And so you say, well, what do they want? And what they want is every penny of the millionaires tax back in their pockets.

ANNA

They clearly don't want democracy. Right. They have no interest in democracy at all. We just voted for that. And they're like, do what? You know, they're the toddler, they're the three year old. Do what I want or I'll smash everything. Right.

JONATHAN

As well as even the fact that, like, nevertheless, that these people have already gotten. Gotten a tax cut because that was Healey's first kind of priority when she took office. So they already got a tax cut around the estate tax around capital gains, etc. And then they got a massive tax cut from the Trump administration, and that's not enough for them.

HARRIS

No, and this is the thing, this is a form of blackmail. And that's very important to understand here because this is a, you know, if you believe in democracy, there's nothing worse for democracy than a special interest trying to blackmail the government over the heads or behind the backs of the people, which is what's happening here? We call it, using the ballot strategy, we call doing this a Q bomb. And that comes from an old movie that some of you may remember. I. I do. I'm, I guess, getting long in the tooth or whatever called the Mouse that Roared, which was a kind of lighter version of Dr. Strangelove, which probably more of you have seen, which is a parody about the Cold War and nuclear war thread. And both of them have Peter Sellers in playing multiple roles in them. So they were clearly, you know, turned out at the same time by the same, I don't know, people. But, but in the, in the Mouse Aurora, the thing is, there's a scientist developing this thing called the Q bomb because there's the A bomb, the H bomb. The Q bomb is the doomsday device. It's the thing that will blow the whole world up. And so we started calling this a question bomb because a Q Q bomb is a question bomb. And that's when you put something on the table that is so scary to somebody that they, they agree to do something else rather than have that happen. Now we're such, you know, you know, I don't know what, like namby pamby, choir boy types or something. We, you know, our idea of a Q bomb was like corporate tax disclosure, which of course is a good thing, but, you know, scares corporations who don't pay their fair taxes. So they'd be like, oh, well, okay, you can have this instead.

ANNA

You know, as if anything that we, Anything that we want is a Q bomb, they act right. They're like, oh, there'd be the destruction of, you know, whatever, like this with the millionaires tax. They were like, look at all the horrible things that will happen if you do this. Oh, it will be the end of the world. You know, anytime you want to raise the minimum wage, all the businesses are like, oh, my God, it'll destroy the whole city. You know, it's like not a cue bomb.

HARRIS

No, no, it isn't. Our thing is what the people want.

JORDAN

Yeah.

HARRIS

What they do is they come up with something that the people might think they want, like a tax cut, because they're angry about, you know, inflation and everything. But actually, if they looked at it closely, they'd see it isn't really going to do much for them good and it's going to do a lot of bad, meaning they won't be able to trust their public school to be worth sending their kids to, which is pretty serious financial loss if you're a working

JONATHAN

family, especially because I think that the point there that I think is such an important one to make is that there are so many investments that the government makes that people don't think of the monetary value that they gain from that investment. Like the idea of having a high quality public, having a high quality, well funded, well functioning public school, having wealth, a well funded health care system, having like well funded part, having let's say like well funded, well taken care of parks, transportation, roads, etc. That are all actual investments that you as an individual benefit from. Benefit from that you don't think of in monetary value.

HARRIS

Exactly. So you know, and this is the, but see here, there's even this bait and switch going on where they're, they're saying we want to give a tax cut. That sounds like, well, everybody will get some kind of tax cut. In fact that text you got, Anna, is a perfect example. It said, I remember a lot of people got it. I mean a lot of people in the campaign got it. It said oh, you know, put money back in your pocket, give working families a tax break. But that same day they put out to the legislature a message that said this is what we want. And they, what it want, they want is a get rid of the estate tax for millionaires and billionaires. Get rid of the tax on high earning partnerships who are, you know, pay a higher rate because they make so much money, you know, like millions and millions of dollars. You know, get rid of that tax and you know, and many other good ideas we have. No mention of working families tax cut, no mention of cutting taxes for the average person at all.

ANNA

Right.

HARRIS

Even though the one they, they're putting on the ballot is very un. Uneven. Right. You know, rich person gets 35,000 back and a worker gets $250 back. But at least everybody gets something. Right. Is the idea even that's a lie. They, they are telling the legislature this is what we told the public, but we're telling you this is what we want. And if you do this, we'll take this off the ballot for now. Right, but that's blackmail. That's extortion. You're saying we will destroy the state's ability to finance itself, to govern itself, unless you give us what we want. And of course if the government does give them what they want, they'll do this again two years later. They'll just keep putting ballot questions, coupons up and basically make themselves the oligarchs of the state.

ANNA

I know before we started recording there was a little bit of the history of why they know that this tactic Works because it did in the past. And I think, Jordan, you were.

JORDAN

Yeah, just, just, you know, they, they successfully got rid of time and a half by putting on the ballot question about eliminating or lowering the sales tax. And so they forced those of us who are working on raising the minimum wage and paid leave to basically take a deal that cut time and a half on weekends. And as I noted at the time, I think we talked about actually on this podcast, that the real reason they didn't even care about the sales tax and they certainly didn't. Didn't actually care about the minimum wage increase. It just cost them money to administer the time and a half. So it was literally just like they care so little about people. It was just that the software they were using and other things was just too. It was just like, easier for them to administer. Like, it was worth blowing up people's lives and blowing up the state budget to make it administratively easier to pay poor people that they don't see as humans. And like, I just think that that's an important thing. But also that the legislature caved was the lesson. The legislature didn't say what it should be saying now.

JONATHAN

Right.

JORDAN

Like, the answer to this should not be pound sound, you know, pound sand. It should be great. We're going to put, we're going to move through the legislature a 70% tax on corporations. Like, that's actually what a Democratic legislature should be doing. When the legisl. When they threatened the sales tax, they should have just said, great, we're going to move a tax on corporations. And that would have killed that sales tax thing. And you didn't have to screw workers. Our legislature doesn't need to just be passive. No, it's like, I know it's really good at doing nothing. And we're counting it on in this case to continue its 50th and 50th to do nothing when the, when these rich people want them, oligarchs tell them to. But actually a Democratic legislature that sees itself as representing regular people and poor people would not be taking oligarchs, pushing them around as a time to put cower in the sand and hope it goes away, but go on the offensive and say we actually have power and we could tell you to f off. And it's frustrating that they don't see that role. But the reason that they're doing this is because it's worked well.

HARRIS

And the danger here clearly is that the legislature and the governor have to hold firm and not yield to this extortion. Because if they do. They're handing them the reins of state government because then this thing is working, you know, on a huge level and these guys will just keep at it until, you know, forever. So, I mean, we really need to get them to just, you know, you're not, you're not welcome in this building if you're going to play that game. You know, there's nothing to talk about here. I mean, I even said, you know, I mean, you know, I'm not going to let a guy with a loaded gun in my house try to sell me a vacuum cleaner. I mean, you know, it just isn't. It's not the way we do things, you know, it's not, it's not okay.

ANNA

And I wish they just weren't welcome in the House, period. Like, I mean, these, these lobbying things for, for the uber rich and for corporations to literally just not be in the building. It's not whether they're blackmailing or not, whether they have a Q bomb or not. How about representing working class people in the 99 of us? I don't know. It's a crazy idea.

HARRIS

99 and the 1%, it's on Beacon Hill weigh the same. And, and you know, and they do see themselves playing like a balancing game between the two when anybody who has any like, idea of like what democracy is supposed to be. Yeah, it doesn't sound quite, you know,

JONATHAN

like it's the way I'm one of my big.

HARRIS

What's this? 90%? No, 99. But it does.

JONATHAN

And I've often described it as the problem of the Democratic Party viewing itself as like the arbitrator between labor and capital, rather than like, like a party of labor and a party of capital duking things out. Democratic Party views itself as the one to cut deals between both, rather than actually being an advocate of like a full, a full and forceful advocate for labor.

HARRIS

Right, which it should be because, you know, capital can advocate for itself just fine. It exact the economy. It doesn't need help.

JONATHAN

Exactly.

HARRIS

Elected politicians keep its thing going. The problem. The rest of us need it. Because when it doesn't do its role like it didn't before the New Deal in this country. Yeah, incredible inequality in this country. I mean inequality much worse even than we do right now. Although we're very, we're getting very close. We're going to be back there at this rate. Trump is pushing it, you know, much faster. But then you see these people in Massachusetts, you know, people represent the technic tech industry in Massachusetts pushing to really rapidly increase the inequality in the state, which is already an unequal state, you know, it's already a very rich state with poor distribution of that wealth across, you know, income, the income ladder. And I mean, the thing is, you know, this is, this is the problem we face, but it's something that we really have to. Have to push back against. And, and we are pushing back against. I think the good, you know, one of the good news here, I was

ANNA

just going to get to that actually and say, like, for people listening, it is not all doom and gloom. You know, there, there's hope here. Not just hope, but I think you had some, some really interesting words to say about how this is, you know, in some ways proof that we are winning generally. But also you had some good, good news for us on, on this conversation as well.

HARRIS

Right. Well, if the government, you know, if our government isn't ready to tell them, you're not welcome here. We are ready to tell them that

JONATHAN

for sure.

ANNA

We are.

HARRIS

We've been actually doing something, I think it's pretty unusual. We've been going to the member organizations and businesses of the High Tech Council and saying, why are you involved in this? Why are you putting, you're lending your name to this thing that, you know, is a disaster, you know, would be bad even for you. Some of them, of course, even work. There are a couple of public colleges on that membership. Like, if this isn't bad for you, I don't. Yeah, and even some private ones like Brandeis and, you know, some of them took persuasion. Some of them just needed to have this really put in front of them. We've knocked their membership from 64 institutions down to 54. Ten have left the Globe has covered it with a very good article. You know, the Chancellor of UMass Lowell, she spoke very strongly about why we had to leave because they're doing these ballot questions and their agenda is not the agenda of, you know, of education, for example. And, and so this is, you know, and we're doing this ongoing where we're having protests at their offices. We have social media posts and digital ads and all kinds of stuff letting people know these people are willing to wreck our schools and take away your health care in order to get tax breaks. Why are you associated with them? And so the goal is to actually make them pay a price for having done this, that they are not legitimate and that a lot of people who are members of these consortiums don't realize how they're being used. And I think it's a really, a breakthrough campaign. It's something that's really these people wouldn't have dared do this except in the Trump era. But I think our fighting spirit is something of the Trump era, too. We're really ready to push back and say this isn't acceptable. And so we've had big gains already and we keeping it going and escalating it and really making sure that people on Beacon Hill say, well, gee, if you guys are doing so well, I guess maybe we do have a backbone and we'll tell them no way. But, you know, and that's good. I mean, we do have to lead by example. We have to be the leaders.

ANNA

Yeah. Well, this has been an incredible conversation. I, I do as part of my job, I have to remind people that this converse the kind of conversation you do not hear in the mainstream media. We have a little link below where you can donate to the show and we really appreciate all of our monthly donors. It's incredible to have folks who really believe in the show and help us to make sure that this gets out into as many ears and to as many eyeballs as possible. And I'm just going to go ahead and ask everybody for a final word on this topic. Do you want to go ahead and start start us off, Jonathan?

JONATHAN

Sure. I would just say the importance of like knowing that let's say this year is one that could have a lot of ballot questions. It's important to be aware of these things early. Ideally, this one will not make the ballot at all. And it is important to talk to legislators around that about kind of being a hard no on negotiating if it does go forward. It's important that people realize what a bad deal this is for Massachusetts, especially for it being something that to some people sounds intuitively good, but once they actually understand the ramifications of it, would realize why it's such a bad deal

ANNA

for the Commonwealth and Jordan.

JORDAN

Yeah. Just get involved like this, as we often say at the ends of these. But this is really important. Like if it feels like it's just like, oh, like how big a deal would this be? Like, think of it as like, this would be really bad. Right. The Great Depression bad of detachment society. So everything that you care about, from the roads you drive on to the schools your kids go to, to the crumbling infrastructure we already have all of those things become threatened and you know, it's really bad. And so make sure that they know that, that you're make sure your legislators know that they should have to be a hard no and get involved on it as quickly as possible.

ANNA

Great. And for myself, I will say, you know, we are going to be this is a great year to get involved in ballot questions in general. We, our last week's session was on the stipend reform. Incredibly important. Really hope that people will get involved in that. This one obviously, crucially, crucially important that we defeat this. Let's try and make and get involved now so we can defeat it before it becomes a real ballot question. And so I'm excited for this to be a great way for our listeners to find some fantastic things to do right here in our state. And Harris, I'm going to turn it to you for the final, final word.

HARRIS

Well, I think one thing people can do right now, I mean, obviously if you're involved in an organization like Progressive Mass or other ones that are doing protests at these places, that's a great way to get involved. But another way everybody can get involved is to go to the we've created MHTC, which is Mass High Tech Council mhtcrevealed.com where you will see the list of all the people who are still in this, you know, sinister consortium and the people who quit and you know, and, and the people who quit deserve thanks. And the people who did not quit need to hear from you. I mean, you may be a customer of theirs, you may do business with them. You may be at their bank, you may be in their, you know, they get, you know, cyber security from them. You may be a student at their colle. There's still a couple of colleges in there and you know, or an alumnus or a donor. Call them up and tell them you can't be associated with this kind of blackmail. You can't be associated with this kind of tactic. You, you, you can't be associated with destroying our state, you know, and, and let them know that you feel that way. A lot of them don't want to rock the boat that way, you know, but they'll do it if it's easy. You got to make it not easy.

ANNA

Right on. Thank you all so much. Harris, amazing work that you're doing. Thanks so much for coming on and for doing the work you do. Thanks so much to all of our listeners. Share this episode with your friends and we look forward to seeing you all next week.

HARRIS

Well, thank you for having me on. Good to be with good friends.

ANNA

Our pleasure.

JORDAN

Lovely to see you. It's been a while.

JONATHAN

Thank you so much.

JORDAN

Oh, one.