Incorruptible Mass

Kimmel and the Media

• Anna Callahan • Season 6 • Episode 18

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In this episode, we examine the recent suspension of Jimmy Kimmel. We chat about this news specifically, the American media ecosystem as a whole, and what we as media consumers can do to keep ourselves and our democracy better-informed.

You’re listening to Incorruptible Mass. Our goal is to help people transform state politics: we investigate why it’s so broken, imagine what we could have here in MA if we fixed it, and report on how you can get involved.

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ANNA

Hello and welcome to Incorruptible Mass. Our mission here is to help us all transform state politics because we know that we could have a legislature that supports the needs of the vast majority of the 7 million of U.S. who live here in the Commonwealth. Today we will be talking about the media, how much the media sucks media consolidation. We will be talking about the media nationally and how much they suck the media and at the state level and how much they suck and even the media at the local level and how much not only do they suck but they basically don't even exist anymore they suck so much. And that is our agenda for today. But before we do let me introduce my illustrious co host and I will start with Jordan.


JORDAN

Jordan Brooke Powers (he/him/his), and I got my start a long time ago in politics but I took a detour to talk about media consolidation. So I am excited about this conversation.


JONATHAN

Jonathan Cohn, active in progressive political, electoral and issue campaigns for over a decade now. And joining from Boston on the South End — he/him/his, and always happy to engage in media criticism.


ANNA

And I am Anna Callahan (she/her) coming at you from Medford where I am a city councilor so I often talk about like local politics and how that fits into things. And to get us started I'm going to call on Jordan. I know you are super excited about this and let's talk a little bit about the national level because of course we had Jimmy, you know Colbert got cancelled, not immediately but like he's his show is going to be over and then Jimmy Kimmel got pulled, yanked sudden, suddenly and now is maybe back. But boy have we had some major stomps on the media from our federal government. But, but more importantly I think what we want to talk about is how the media is not the media is just being like okay sure whatever you know rolling over and being doormats instead of standing up for what they.


JORDAN

I think the first thing to remember is that the way that they make money is selling us. Like that's the first thing I think that's really important is that we are not their primary consumers. We're their secondary consumers. Their primary consumers are ad buyers. They're advertising and actually our eyeballs our time, our attention is is what they're selling and they want to manipulate that to keep us in as, as as much engaged as possible. And so that means enraging us. And so the local media is look is looks a lot like your algorithm on your Facebook if you for for some odd reason are still on Twitter if you if you're on Instagram, they're trying to elicit emotions and the emotions that they feel are the most likely to keep your attention or anger and, and conflict. And so the media has created this world that does not exist, where there are only two sides that everything can be reduced into, the Democrats and Republicans. It's why they can't figure out how to talk about some of, some of the things that we're learning. Because they don't fit neatly into their supporting the Republican Party or supporting the Democratic Party because people don't in reality live that way. They don't live in party politics. And their, and what their actions do don't reflect hoping somebody gets president someday. I'm gonna do this action in the hopes that somebody will win Iowa in 2026. Is that what they're doing? That's why people act. But that's the way the media covers every minutia of the world. It does not matter if you're talking about the weather, if you're talking about anything. They're talking about it in conflict of Democrats versus Republicans, right? Climate change is Democrats versus Republicans. Your healthcare is Democrats versus Republicans. It does not. Education is Democrats. They literally frame everything into their only true God, which is both sidesism. They worship it. They sacrifice our democracy at the altar of it. They do not do anything else because it's about conflict and it's about selling our eyes and our outrage and our attention to advertisers who, who are the primary sources of their money. And so that's the thing to really keep in mind when thinking about what happened with, with, with what's going on. But the other piece is that as consolidation happens, actually they care less and less about us. Like they even. They're not even trying to outrage us or trying to give us content. They're literally just like, you will keep watching because we own everything and you. And we will. And we will give you just right wing slop or, you know, conflict that doesn't mean anything because we don't care because we own everything. We own all the TV stations. There's were the billionaires, right? The billionaires are now going to own TikTok. They're going to. They already own, you know, they already bought out. It used to be summer Redstone was, you know, better or worse was middle of the road for cbs. Now it's owned by a right wing ideologue. Twitter's roamed by a right wing ideologue. TikTok's going to be owned by right wing ideologue. Apple has shown its fealty and being willing to be a right wing ideolog. Zuckerberg has discovered he's actually an evil person and he's now a right wing ideolog. All right, so all of these entities that you spend your eyeballs, your thing owned by people who have an ideological idea about the world, which is one that is racist, that is sexist, and that generally does not think that you're equal to them and should be treated as such.


JONATHAN

The. What I feel is always important to think about with a lot of media content is that if you're not paying, it's because you're the product. And that's like for any of the kind of the platforms that's ultimately what, like what it's about if you're not paying to be on there. And like I'm on, I'm on too many of them. I acknowledge this and then I'm fully guilty. Right. Something of this. But if, like, if you're not paying for a subscription, it's because they know that they are monetizing your participation on it. And like the fact of cases where you do have to pay is its own problem about how much, how payrolled. It's like payroll. Much of the media ecosystem is for any like. And that having high quality and free combined isn't like, not nearly as common as it should be.


ANNA

And so this whole, all this crazy shakeup of. I just want to touch a little bit on what people are talking about nationally with Colbert and with Jimmy Kimmel.


ANNA

You know, I mean, I don't think we've ever seen this kind of absolutely blatant, you know, members of the cabinet are coming out and saying we can do this the easy way or the hard way. Like you either cancel somebody because of what he says does not please, you know, our dear Leader Trump, or like we will make life difficult for you find it for your, you know, multinational organization financially. And that is pretty crazy that that is what is happening at the national level. And then he's announcing, he's like, oh well, after Colbert he said Jimmy Kimmel is next. And now he already has, you know, his next up. Like he has plans in the future for the next person he's gonna, you know, he's gonna deal with and get fired.


JORDAN

Yeah, he put, he put up, he put up Seth Meyers and Jimmy Fallon, which like Jimmy Fallon on that list. Like how like Jimmy Fallon never barely makes fun of you. Like you're going after Jimmy Fallon. It's so how thin skinned are you I think the other. So the other. The thing that's really important for Pokes is like the pushback mattered. It mattered a lot. But it mattered because. Because, because Disney wanted to. Is raising their prices. So they didn't really were getting all these cancels. You know, Google spiked with how to cancel my Hulu, how to cancel my Disney plus at the same time that Disney was raising its prices. And Disney can raise its prices because it's basically a monopoly. There's only. What are you going to. You're going to go to abc. You're going to go to. I mean, sorry, it is abc. You're going to go to NBC, cbs. Like that's it. That's your choices. They own these whole conglomerates. So they didn't want people canceling at the same time that people were. That people were. That they were planning to raise prices. The other piece I think that's important is just how much of this consolidation. So between nexstar and Sinclair, which are the two right wing local station owners, their, their direct ownership and affiliates, they own 378 local TV stations combined. So they are. So they were. They're trying to merge to be even bigger. It used to be that you couldn't cross own anything, radio and TV and you were capped at two. And they're talking about 378. And they needed FCC approval. This comes from 1996 Communications act which allowed for consolidation. Thank you Bill Clinton and your terrible policies for allowing the consolidation. It exploded. If you are like me and like hip hop, I always talk about hip hop. There were. There were hundreds of hip hop stage, there were hundreds of hip hop labels. Hip hop had a diversity of type of hip hop in 1995 and by 1996 they're all owned by five corporations. Now they're owned by roughly two or three. And that's why hip hop all sounds the same. So you went from like a diversity of a vibrant community to one type of music. And I like to joke that if you really like old white men and their opinions about hip hop, those are the people making the decisions on your hip hop choices. You know, you get this one of my favorite. I had this ad of unsigned underground artist Drake who was owned by Nickelodeon. And then he magically signs with the same corporation that owns cbs, which also owns Nickelodeon. And he was like, they were like, he's unsigned, he's in the, he's in the grassroots. And I was like, the guy from Degrassi is hip hop artist. I was like, this is so ridiculous. Right but that's like. And the front page article for that was also owned by cbs. So CBS was hyping CBS person as being unsigned from cbs, but magically then has a musical career with cbs.


ANNA

Which is one thing that I notice is, is we're now there are all sorts of podcasts, news podcasts that are becoming really popular. And it's because of this consolidation that people are just sick and tired of hearing the same stuff all the time from the same organizations. And so now there are all these, you know, podcasters. And then of course there was there was the little mini scandal about the Democratic funded. Oh yeah, group, right, where they, they had some sort of a secret agreement that they were not allowed to talk about and they were gonna, you know, have certain talking points and have to get agree before they said certain things and all that stuff. And, and you know, I, I do like to talk about both Democrats and Republicans. Obviously the amount that the Democrats have been able to do this is so minuscule compared to the Republican complete takeover of like all of the multinationals and you know, everything in AM radio that was decades ago, as well as, you know, all the local news channels and all of that has been insane. And so I don't really blame the Democratic Party for trying, but they could have done it, could have done a little better job. But I think that is in part why there are so many proliferating podcasters that are becoming really popular. My favorite one is Breaking Points, which is Democrat and Republican. I really enjoy their, their analysis on everything you get. Ryan Graham, who's from the Intercept, is one of their regular people as well as Kostel Doll. But then they've, they have a couple of Right, right people as well. Not Trump people, but you know, Republican, non Trump Republicans. So it's interesting, but I think this, the growing, like how these giant mega corporations will deal with the growing proliferation of podcasters and other sources of news content is becoming interesting. And as, as they were talking about, they were also saying, you know, if you think that any of us as smaller podcasters, no matter how much we make, are going to be able to refuse or able to stand up to the administration when the administration threatens us, you have a, you're, you know, I got a bridge to sell you. Right?


JORDAN

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Like that's why that, that's why the fight for Kimmel was so important. I don't think I've watched Kimmel ever really. But like I, but it was really important that we, for that reason, because if they can go after him, then we're all in trouble. And it was, I think, you know, it's, it is nice that Democrats are finally on board with this thing that we've been saying for some time, which is like the, the authoritarianism is here. It's not in the future. It's not creeping. It's not like this is. That's it like threatening to. Kicking people off. You know, the only reason, the fact that it didn't work doesn't mean it didn't, it didn't happen. Like, that's straight up dictatorship stuff.


JONATHAN

And it's like an ineffective dictator is not less a dictator for being.


ANNA

The judicial stuff is even more crazy. Like, yeah, I've hear comparisons of, you know, Watergate was, was basically small change compared to what currently doing, and yet there's such a flood of like every single day. This is the Project 2025 thing where they're like, flood the zone. You know, do. Do a outrageous thing every single day. And so when you do something that's worse than Watergate, no one even says boo.


JONATHAN

Because it's like, wait, hold on, finish. And I'm gonna chime in.


ANNA

Oh, no, that was it. Like, it's like the flooding the zone means that it doesn't matter how bad any one individual thing is, you're not going to get the same reaction that you got, you know, five years ago, because it's just, we can't, we can't even deal with the number of authoritarian things that have never been done before.


JONATHAN

Oh, I was going to tell me that, like, and that's actually like fully intentional. Who was it of the early kind of folks who helped create Fox News, who out of that, kind of, out of the experience with Watergate had that realization of. Because there was no media ecosystem calling for Richard Nixon to stay and stay in, to fight. All right, because of the like that he's got, like. Right. Yeah. Okay. I thought it was heirs said this. Yeah, that. So then he resigns. But like, imagine then the alternative of where there is that robust kind of Republican media ecosystem saying Richard Nixon did nothing wrong. That is what we have today, right.


JORDAN

Just to, just to name clearly what happened. The whole pitch was Roger Ailes, who was a acolyte of Nixon, said what if somebody could do what Nixon does and get away with it? We could do that if we had a media system in place to advocate for it. So they explicitly exist to set up the sort of rot, authoritarian rot that we are now seeing that it's really just about. They don't care about democracy. It's literally owned by a foreigner. Apparently we're okay with that. When they're right wingers, they don't care about America. They don't care about Americans. They don't care about people. They care about having power for themselves. And that's what Fox News is about. It's about. It's literally about that. And so they wanted a way to literally break the law like Nixon and get away with it. And we should always be clear about that's what's going on. And I think that's what's so incredulous about the way in which the media does the both sides. Like there just is not an equivalent. You know, there is not an equivalent thing happening. I will, I say. I say it here all the time and I will always say it. MSNBC has more former Republicans than they do progressives on air. Yeah, they do. You know, it is not the case that you can have leftist values and be on tv. You do not have avowed like there are. There is nobody on TV saying nationalize things. There is nobody on TV there. You will not get quoted in the New York Times talking about nationalizing Facebook. But that is. That is not even to. That is not even an equivalent to how right wing the. The current authoritarian MAGA regime is. Right. Like even somebody going on and saying we should nationalize Facebook is not an leftist equivalent to what we're seeing. It's still not as far left as what as the right is right now. And that is a total. It's not asymmetry is not even the beginning of it. Right. Like it's just bonkers town out of control. These people are in a different way, in a different space and they're treated as equal, as the same as it's equal. Like two sides of the coin. And that's what gets talked about. And the media talks about it like there's a conflict between these two rather than there's this. There's actual ideas. And so it's really important that we. That, you know, like, I think it's really important that we always keep that in mind that there is just not leftists. You don't hear them. If you hear them on a podcast. Yes. You might hear them on YouTube. Yes. You might get them on TikTok. Sure. But you're not seeing them in media that's owned by anybody. There's no access to leftist thought in those places. We should always be clear about that. Unless Bernie Sanders says it. It's the only time it happens.


ANNA

And pretty soon, hopefully, Zohran, maybe some other— I have a few voices that they—


JONATHAN

I feel like the left bound of what's allowable on TV is probably Chris Hayes.


JORDAN

Yes. Right. That's right. Yeah. I think the other thing I want to talk about is just the importance of the. The local media. Right. Like, it's really important. What Anna said about supporting these, this podcast. Thank you for supporting us. It is really important.


JONATHAN

You should make a pitch.


JORDAN

I'll make a pitch in a second. But I will say it's really important that people support independent media. Support local media. For example, I give money to the Philadelphia Inquirer, which is owned by People. It's a nonprofit. I give money to that nonprofit. I don't live in Philadelphia. I don't need really that news all that often, but I just think I support ProPublica. There's a lot of great places. You know, I always say, for every dollar you give for a New York Times game, that could go to things that don't hate trans people. Like, you could give money to people who don't. Like, you should never give money to the New York Times. Especially in an ecosystem where there's such good independent media out there that needs support, that needs our support. I give a ton to different types of feminist, to investigative, to all sorts of media. And you should, too. And like, it's really important that in this, as consolidation continues, right, The Next Star deal is going to go through. That's going to go through. They're going to consolidate more. That local TV is going to be even worse than already is. It's already terrible. That's why it's really important that you support independent stuff. And that's why it's really important that you give to us. As you all know, we don't, we don't get money, the people you see in here, but we pay people in the background to make this available to you all. So please do consider supporting us supporting other independent media. Supporting outside of the corporate media system. We need to fight for the Jimmy Kimmels so that the people like us can at least exist. But your money will also go to them because, like, you know, I don't know, we're going to like some of their shows, but it should go to independent media too, right? Like, I pay money for, for, you know, my. I have a kid. Like, I pay money to Disney. Like, it is what it is. But I also pay money for independent media. Like, make sure we're. Make sure independent media is a part of the landscape of where you're spending your dollars.


ANNA

Absolutely. And, you know, on. On that note, I'm going to turn the conversation a little bit and have us talk about state politics because, you know, we were mentioning earlier about a really ridiculous situation where the governor, poor Governor Healy, she's trying to talk about health care, and they're like, no, talk about the state flag, which is a flag is not an unimportant topic. However, she should be able to talk about health care. Right. So tell the story.


JORDAN

Yeah, just really quickly. And then, Jonathan, I'd love to. We should talk a little bit more about consolidation. A little bit more, but just really quickly. The Maury Healey had a press conference to talk about health care, which I don't know is really important. It's going up. We have lots of problems with it. And she has some policies for it. You can agree or not disagree. I have some disagreements on the actual policy solutions she wants to have, but, you know, she wanted to talk about that. And the few reporters that are there, because there aren't that many, asked her about the flag and she got testy and was like, I'm not talking about the flag. I want to talk about the healthcare. And the local news media covered it as conflict, like, oh, Maura Healey doesn't want to talk about the flag. The flag's a real issue, like the fags and things. And she didn't have an answer, but she wanted to talk about healthcare. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want my governor to know about healthcare. I don't care what my. Like, I want the flag to change. The flag should change. It's racing. Like, let's get rid of it. But, like, if she's having a press conference about health care, that's actually more important.


JONATHAN

It's more important.


JORDAN

I wouldn't have answers for that. I want my governor to be focused on health care costs, rising health care costs, especially in this moment. Right. Like, the idea, the incredulousness that she wouldn't wade into a conflict. They literally ran as their front story for Masterless, for Politico. The incredulousness that she want to talk about it and wanted to talk about health care, and they were incredulous. Like, how dare she? It was just.


JONATHAN

Well, I would say it's also kind of the striking thing about that is that it is an attempt to allow the two Republicans currently, and I believe it's only two of them currently in the race to run against her, to be the ones setting the terms of debates. Because they were all like, how dare. Because the commission that's developing a new proposal for the flag and seal because they are racist and should have been changed decades ago. That they're trying to, like, act as though anybody in Massachusetts has, like, a deep emotional connection with our state flag and seal. It's like, give me a break. You didn't even know what this looked like until somebody got mad about it.


JORDAN

Yeah.


JONATHAN

And they're trying to play, like, typical grievance politics. It's like, sorry, there actually isn't the start, like the Confederate flag on this. You don't need. You need to peek out right now to protect something racist.


ANNA

Is this whole thing, like, how dare you change anything? How dare you change.


JONATHAN

Exactly.


ANNA

For no reason. For no reason for school mascot to not change it. Like, there. They literally couldn't even have known what it was. But, like, exactly. It changes.


JONATHAN

It's like, it's even stupider than the school mascot stuff where it's like, when people get attached to, like, their school's racist mascot that, like, that should have changed a while ago, but, like, at least they have some emotional association with it. Nobody has that connection to the flag.


ANNA

Yeah.


JONATHAN

But then Republicans, in the absence of any actual issues to run on, because everything that they're doing in part because of Heely's attempting to flatten her differences with them, that they are trying to find an area of grievance that belongs. That belongs to them, and that the media allows that shaping to happen.


JORDAN

I think it's. You know, I did a. I did a training recently and I asked people what was the Republican Party's national platform? And people said, like, oh, Project 2025 MAGA. And I said. I reminded them there was none. They did not have an official platform for the Republican Party nationally, and they paid no political price for that. They. The media didn't cover the fact that sort of outrage that there is no governing principles. There's no. There's no belief systems, that they don't have actual policies to make people's lives there. They literally ran on no policies. And they could do that because the media aided and abetted that sort of politics. They aid in a bed. Policy. Policy devoid conversations.


ANNA

Well, you know the reason. Sorry, go ahead.


JORDAN

Yeah, they. They just really quickly. They only, you know, they will not COVID policy. They will not cover the things that actually matter to making your lives better. They will only cover Democrats versus Republicans are doing.


ANNA

And I do think that that has something to do specifically with Trump. I mean, they've had policy platforms before, but, like, Trump changes his mind Every minute. And he does not want them to have a policy platform, because.


JORDAN

That's right.


ANNA

So he— what he wants is absolute fealty to Trump.


JORDAN

Dictators want that, right?


ANNA

That's it. That's the only policy platform they have, is absolute fealty to Trump. And if they don't do it, they get punished. Which is why, you know, the. The whole judicial system thing is just insane, where he's like, you know, he fires people who won't basically, you know, run lawsuits against his enemies when they find that there's actually no evidence against Letitia James, for example, there isn't any evidence she did anything wrong. And so he's firing that person, and he's gonna replace them with somebody who will, despite there being no evidence, you know, file a lawsuit against her and against Comey and against other people. But, like, it's. It's nothing but do whatever Trump wants at any minute of the day, even if that's the opposite of what he said yesterday.


JORDAN

That's a really good point. That's what dictators want. That's their policy position is dictatorship. It's like authoritarian dictatorship. I am the final say on what is and isn't. And you will have to defend something, which they do all the time. Right. Like, Trump has said stuff and gone the exact opposite. I'm a peace president. I'm gonna make the Department of War really just nonsense, and they have to defend it. And if you had a policy position that you could put against it, you could not do that. If you hold it up. Yeah. I just think. I think it's really important that we keep. I want to be careful. It's like, we need a thriving media system. You should support independent, supporting thriving media, supporting asking questions. But we should also, not in the same tone, leave a blind eye to how our media system, and especially our local media system, is aiding and abetting the problem that has made this problem bad, that has gotten us to where we are, which is that they do not cover. You know, the reason that people you see all the time, like, oh, people don't know what Democrats. But Democrats have. Like, you might not agree or disagree with Democrats, but they have platforms, they have policies, they have ideas on how to make the world, but they literally will never get covered. One of my favorite things about Charlie Baker is we asked voters what they thought of Charlie Baker in a poll, and people didn't know Charlie Baker was. Didn't know he was. So when we said the governor, they said. And they said, oh, he's popular. That's what they said. That's what voters said to us about it because that's the only thing the media ran about him was that he was the most popular reporter and said become self-fulfilling. So it became self-fulfilling because that was the only thing voters could tell you about him is that he is popular because that's the only thing they said about him.


ANNA

I also, I have always noticed that when the media covers any sort of a union strike, that what they cover is they say, oh, the union is striking and causing all these problems and they're refusing to negotiate with the company. And they, and they, they literally like the thing that boggles my mind is they never talk about what it is the union is asking for, right? Hey man, we would actually not like to have our limbs cut off on the job. 14 hour days, 17 days in a row, like, whereas any. If they would put that out, then people would be on the side of the unions. But they never cover any of that. And it really goes to what you're saying, Jordan, about how, you know, they just want conflict. All they talk about is the conflict. The unions refusing to negotiate and the, you know, the company has provided them with a, with two possible, you know, contracts, but they're refusing it. Well, what's in these contracts they don't bother to say.


JONATHAN

And it's also like a specific type of conflict that is divorced of historical context as well.


JORDAN

Always.


JONATHAN

That the best type of conflict of that is conflict that exists only in the moment to be forgotten about immediately until it becomes a blood feud and is remembered forever. But like not something that is actually like explained of how you actually got to that point. And are there, is there like a body of reasons for, for conflict to exist?


ANNA

This is, this kind of reminds me of like so I used to make these short films, right? These little competition films. And so you'd have to write a script really quickly. And one of the things we talked about is you never have to explain why people fall in love, right? And the thing about the Montagues versus the Capulets is like, you don't have to explain. They hate each other. It's a family feud. And so this is like, this is what they're in the media. It's the Democrats and the Republicans. You never have to explain. It's not about policy. They just hate each other. It's like the Romans with their. The Greens versus the Blues or whatever. It was like what was the Reds versus the Greens. They had these, these gladiatorial teams and you would just be on a team and it actually infected their politics very deeply because people ended up like going to war because they were on these different, basically sports teams the media talks about. It is like it's red team versus blue team, as if it were the Montagues and the Capulets. And no one ever has to explain why we disagree with each other. We just hate each other.


JONATHAN

Well, I feel like the sports team affiliation was something I was thinking about because it also gets at the way that you have. You can root for somebody in a race given your given external hatreds, rather than the two in the race. Like I can think, for instance, I went to Georgetown undergrad and one of the few things that I picked up from Georgetown sports, which I don't follow anymore, is that I should hate Duke and I should hate Syracuse. And so I will still root against them in any game. I will not pay attention to the race. I'm so happy when they lose. Just because, like you pick up on who.


JORDAN

Yeah.


JONATHAN

Who are the ones that are like, you're in direct competition with and for them. And I feel like you also have that in the way in which in like that you can develop in politics where you have people sometimes making decisions only because of who a person defines themselves against rather than before. And I think that's a type of grievance politics that Republicans have always been very good at, where people who are a lot of Republicans trying to get people to associate with them only because of a bundle of shared hatreds that, that mask a lack of actual, like, substance.


ANNA

Because that's actually, I feel like that's happening in Medford. Like there's this people running against, you know, the, the, the city council, the progressive, relatively progressive city council who have passed a lot of policy. Like we are trying to get more housing. We're trying to, you know, do climate related stuff. We're like, we're making a lot of, we're trying to protect people from Trump's ICE and all that stuff. We're, we're passing policies and there are a bunch of people running against us. And on their mailers there's one policy, it's like nothing, nothing at all. Just don't like us if you don't like us.


JONATHAN

Exactly.


ANNA

And God only knows what they are going to pass because they, they are not running on any policies. But this is very reminiscent of what we're talking about here.


JORDAN

I just want to connect it to the thing, the news with Comey. We're not sure when you might listen to this, but if you connect it to the company it gets into this. You get this. The same thing, right? It's like Comey versus Trump. It's not. I don't care about James Comey. He's a terrible person. He's always been a super right winger. He was a super Trump. He was a super butch person. He has, he's a right wing ideologue and ultra right wing ideologue who has tipped the scales any place he can against women, against people of color. He purposely targeted.


JONATHAN

He helped get Trump get elected.


JORDAN

I was about to say that. Yeah. He purposely targeted Martha Stewart and then went on to purposefully get Trump elected. And people. And the way the media talks about it is, well, he's against Trump, so he's on that side. And it's like, no, I don't care about Comey because he's not on. He's not on a. Like, he's not on my side. Right. He doesn't. We don't share values. The reason they care is because it's about our democracy. It's about us versus it's about authoritarianism versus democracy. And in that way, the attack on Comey is an attack on us. It's an attack on the way in which we as a society should not be targeted because we did not have fealty to the leader. That's what's happening. And that's not. And so putting it in terms of Democrats versus Republicans, it really does harm us, the collective us and American democracy, because you're losing what's actually happening, which is that a super right wing person who was always a right wing person, who was a Republican his whole life, who sue, who went about the world trying to enact Republican policies through government, did not had a line that would not be filthy to a person, but still fealty to this country. And because of that, he is being targeted for prosecution. That's a problem. End of story. There's not another side to that story. The other side to that story is how big a problem is it not? Is there. Is he. Is Trump like, what's happening? Or is Trump riders or case? No, none of that is real. If there's no case, we all, we can all see with our eyes what's happening. The only story is how bad is it for us. That's the story. It end of story, not science.


ANNA

And if we're going to defend rights like the freedom of speech and other rights that we have, we have to defend them for everyone, even if we disagree with them.


JONATHAN

Yeah, it'd be like the type of thing that like There I'm sure that there are many articles that are like Jimmy Kimmel's restored, restored to TV and a win for Democrats. And like that's not like I'm sure that article exists.


JORDAN

Yeah, exactly.


JONATHAN

And that like they'll see many different things that'll be talked about as like in a loss for Democrats or in for Democrats as though the only like two people with a stake in the outcome are the two political parties and rather than people who get affected by the decisions.


JORDAN

Yeah.


JONATHAN

There's also even the way with, with like his attack and call me that even viewing that in the kind of polarity takes away from the fact that for somebody trying to do let's say like dictatorial consolidation of power, taking up people who are actually on your side is a more effective way of consolidating power because it is a way of locking down, locking down kind of one's own side's dissent, which is effective. Like what often he has done and. But it is just not acknowledged. Not acknowledged really. Well, as such, because anybody who opposes Trump is automatically viewed as being un teamed Democrat.


JORDAN

Exactly.


JONATHAN

We don't really want them.


ANNA

Wonderful. This has been super fun chatting a little bit about national stuff as well as state stuff. Any final comments before we go?


JORDAN

Support local media. Support your independent local media. Support people who are doing good journalism. You do not need. If you can avoid giving your money to corporations, do so and give what you can. And stop, stop listening to Ezra Klein and stop giving money to the New York Times. I just cannot stress that enough. They are not, they are literally. They literally work to get Donald Trump elected. And they are. And they, that is their job.


JONATHAN

One thing I would tag in as well when it comes to a lot of the media, that stuff that is paywalled, that if you're looking to get access to it, check your local library and many times your local library will have a subscription. So if you wanted to access content that you don't, but don't want to have to pay, take advantage of the fact that your library has a subscription that they want you to use and that you can read the content, you can read the content of it.


ANNA

Awesome. And my only final word is, you know, thank you so much to everybody for listening. Forward this on to your friends, donate to the show and to other independent media and we look forward to seeing you all next week.