Incorruptible Mass

Immigrants in Massachusetts

• Anna Callahan • Season 6 • Episode 5

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We start a series on immigration during the second Trump administration by speaking with Dr. Geralde Gabeau, the founder and CEO of the Immigrant Family Services Institute. We take a look at temporary protected status for immigrants, economic reverberations for all Americans, and the personal crises of those being targeted by the administration.


You’re listening to Incorruptible Mass. Our goal is to help people transform state politics: we investigate why it’s so broken, imagine what we could have here in MA if we fixed it, and report on how you can get involved.


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Hello and welcome to Incorruptible Mass. Our mission here is to help you transform state politics because we know that together we can make Massachusetts policy reflect the needs of the vast majority of the residents of our beautiful state. 

Today we have a wonderful guest here to start our series on immigration under Trump.

Dr. Gabeau, I will introduce in just a second, but we will be talking about how the community of immigrants is feeling right now, what they are doing in order to try to protect themselves. We'll talk about the executive orders, we're going to be talking about some advocacy being done around people with temporary protected status.

We'll talk about ICE, we'll talk about the impacts on all sorts of folks who maybe are not immigrants, on the elderly, on children, on you. And then we'll also talk a little bit about the healthcare sector and we'll give you an opportunity, our wonderful listeners, at the end, for what you can do in contacting your elected officials to help with this incredibly important issue. 

But before we do all of that, I will give my super fantastic co hosts the opportunity to introduce themselves.  And I will start with Jordan. 

Hi everyone. My name is Jordan Berg Powers. I use he him and I live in Worcester, Massachusetts, which I'm proud to say is or at least was a refugee resettlement hub. And so I am blessed with having wonderful food and fantastic neighbors. And I'm really excited to have this conversation.

And Jonathan, 

Jonathan Cohn, he him his, have been active on different progressive electoral and issue campaigns here in Boston for over a decade now. And it's always wild to realize that's been over a decade now for me. And joining from Boston in the south end, awesome.

I am Anna Callahan. She her, coming at you from Medford where I am a city councilor. I also do, you know, work at the local level across the country trying to help people from underrepresented groups to work together to be able to elect a majority on their city council and pass policy that that helps to protect folks, just like we're talking about today.

So, and now the moment you have all been waiting for, our special guest, Dr. – Let me hope I get this correct. Dr. Geralde Gabeau from IFSI, which is the Immigrant Family Services Institute, and Dr. Gabeau, I would love to hear a little bit about yourself and how you got into this work, but also about the work that your organization does. Thank you.

Thank you Anna and thank you everyone for having us, having me with you today. Such a pleasure. So again, My name is Dr. Gabeau. I am from Haiti originally. So I was born and raised in Haiti, but really started from this idea of, you know, we are living in a village model, like we are always taking care of each other.

And that's what, you know, put me in this path of always finding ways to support, you know, my neighbors, my brothers, my sisters, that I call them. So I'm here in Mattapan. That's where our IFSI headquarter is located, in Mattapan, the heart of the immigrant community in Mattapan.

And we do a lot of work around immigrant integration. So we have what we call a one stop service center, where our main goal, as soon as people come here, for them to get access to all the information that they need so they can fully integrate into their communities. So that's what we do.

And that's the reason why whenever there is something around immigration or immigrants, we are always at the center of this conversation because that's what we do. Amazing pleasure to be with you. Thank you.

It's wonderful to have you. We're so excited. Again, this is our first episode on immigration.  And to start off, can you tell us a little bit, in your interaction with the immigrants that you work with, how is the community feeling and how are they coping with what's coming from the national level? 

Great, great question, Anna. It's a very difficult time, to say the least, for our community, because currently even our office used to be packed with people. So for you to get through our doors so often you have to go through a line.

But now it's almost easy for you to come because a number of people, they are scared. Fear is the dominant thing that we find in all immigrant communities right now. People, they fear being in the street or accessing services and even of sending their children to school.

So that's a very difficult time because again, you don't want anyone to live in fear. Because we know the impact of fear not only on the physical, but also on the emotional health of someone. But the good thing is that, yes, there is fear, but yes, there is also hope, where we see a lot of advocates coming together to strategize in terms of what are we going to do? 

Because we cannot remain silent.  We have to act. We have to work together to protect our community. 

Amazing.  And right on that topic, can you tell us a little bit about the folks that have come to you, to your organization to help and what specific advocacy you and those folks are doing? Yeah. So basically, right now, it's almost like every single advocate, wherever they are, they are actively engaged in the process of finding ways to protect. Because the key thing now is how do we protect our immigrant community? So, as you know, there is what we call TPS, temporary protected status.

That really so many, you know, not just Haitian, but other communities, that's what they have to allow them to stay legal in this country and to work. And as you heard, you know, last month, the first thing that the administration did was to first rescind TPS for Haiti instead of February to August. But the goal is to really end TPS by August.

When you are, when you think about 500 people on TPS, and then for them to end TPS, it means that 500 people are going to be out in the street not being able to take care of themselves, not being able to go to work. So we found – 

If I may, I apologize for interrupting, but let me ask for some of our listeners who may not know really what temporary protected status is. Can you give us a little sense of how is it different from a green card? How is it different from a visa? What is temporary protected status? Thank you. 

Thank you. Great question. Again, this is a provision that Congress has put together since in the early 1980s with countries that are going through such a hard time, whether or not it's, you know, political unrest, you know, turmoil, natural disaster and so on and so forth. So when those things happen in your country, you cannot go back. So, for example, for Haiti, it's after the horrible, horrible earthquake that, you know, happened in Haiti, killing over 300,000 people.

That's when we first got the temporary protected status. So it's a way to allow nationals to stay in the US and to work because the conditions in their home country is so horrible, they cannot go. So that's how we get to this protection, to allow those people to stay and remain and then work.

And if I may, what exactly is Trump doing about temporary protected status that puts it in so much danger? Yeah. So, for example, every, in our case for Haiti, every 18 months, you know, they have to go through the process of renewing their status based on the condition of the country. So as you know, Haiti has been on that down mode where every day things are getting worse and worse every day.

So that's the reason why every 18 months. So after they do, like a real analysis of the condition of Haiti, they will renew your temporary protected statues. Renewing your temporary protected status means what, you can still keep your job because most of the people, they have to work.

So when, for example, Now Haiti has TPS all the way to February of 2026. So now what he did, he rescinded to August of 2025. It means that people have less time now to do whatever that they need to do.

But he's, he already said that, you know, he completely eliminated tps although it's not, you know, eliminated yet. But that's what he said and that's what he planned on doing. So when you stop that, it means that all of those people are going to be out of work, they are going to be out of status, meaning that they will be sensitive to deportation.

So that's the reason why it's so critical for us to fight for those people to remain legally in this country. Yeah, it's especially appalling given how like it is still very dangerous for people to go back so that it's like kind of his ending this so clearly in violation of this. And like any asset of the spirit of TPS because we want people like, and especially like Boston, like Boston benefits from the immigration we have here and having a thriving Haitian, Haitian American community on here that like we should, we should welcome people where they are safe and able to contribute.

Yes, yes, definitely. And as I said, the situation in Haiti has been so dangerous. So it's almost like every day for people in Haiti it's a __ death situation.

And so being kidnapped, gangs are all over the streets. And, and just remember I always said Haiti does not produce guns. Haiti does not produce any of those things that they are using against our community.

They are coming from somewhere else. You see. I mean, and that's the reason why when you are in a situation like this where citizens of Haiti cannot even get out to do their day to day activities because most of the streets are controlled by the gangs.

So that's the reason when someone is here and you ask them to go back. So basically you ask them to go back to death. They have been here.

Yeah, I'm, I'm also going to jump in with a super quick thing which is, it's not like the United States has had nothing to do with the destabilization of Haiti. 

Oh, I'm telling you. And, and that's exactly what as of today still everyone can see the hands of the US around what's going on in Haiti.

Yeah, right. Who needs to be president, you know, dictating what we can or cannot do. So the US hand in Haiti is so palpable and that's why we have what we have right now. Yeah, because if they wanted to stop the gang violence in Haiti, they would have done that a long time ago. But no, for some reason they want this to continue.

So that's a whole other discussion on foreign policy, as well as the fact that anytime that there are a bunch of guns appearing another country, they're probably coming from the US Somehow, as I know, like in. Like in Mexico. Claudia Schoenbaum has pointed that out that a lot of the violence that happens in other countries either happens because of destabilization, like political destabilization that the US Had a hand in or US Weapons that, That the US Loves building and sending them everywhere. 

Exactly, exactly. I was going to. I was going to ask you, Jordan, to chime in a little bit because I know you've talked about this before, that, you know, this whole idea that you. You're here in the United States and you want to work and you have to have a permit, and a lot of people, they just can't get a permit to work. Yeah.

Don't have you on. Yeah, just. I just think that we, we over. You know, states are always looking for exemptions to federal laws that don't make any sense. And the one that I wish that Massachusetts would be more bold on is just like, we have a shortage of people in a lot of different industries, and we have fantastic people who are already here, people who, you know, somebody who braves leaving their home. I don't know about you, but I have trouble leaving my home to go shopping.

And you're gonna ask somebody to like, brave leaving their homes, everything they know, their culture, their confidence, because they dream of a better world. I want that person to do. To be in this community.

And I know from experience having refugees and wonderful neighbors, that they. That people are the sort of just the impulse and the. And the dreams.

Big. The big dreams, the sort of big ambitions, the big vision for their lives, for their family's lives. Like, those are people you want to give jobs to.

Those are right. Like those are people you want to invest in as a society. And we could be doing that in Massachusetts.

And I think that's ultimately what I think is just we need to be less deferential to, you know, there's plenty of laws that we don't follow because we don't like them. We need to be careful about. About that.

But in a federalist society, in a federalist country, we should be pushing back and always possible to say that, to meet the things we need. 

Sorry, I was going to have you be specific, Jordan, about, like, exactly what policy are you talking about that we should be asking for or just doing without even asking? 

I mean, I think the one is just Giving people the ability to work. I think just like we should just be making it easier for people to work and just giving people some sort of state licensure to work.

It would not be hard. And the good thing about it is it would be hard to be upset about. Like, there's no political downside to saying we want people here in our community to, People want to contribute to their community. Of course. Yes, of course.

And just, just so you know, as I'm talking to you right now, we have so many people in our office who came just to let us know that their employers already, already let them go because of their work permit, even. Even though the work permit is not, you know, ended yet. So.

Oh, wow. Because they know that it's coming. So they already, you know, fired them and saying that what soon we, we will have to let you go.

Instead of waiting. So we let. So employees are already playing in the game or of letting people go.

And that's one of the things that we are telling everyone that we, as you said, Jordan, we have a labor shortage. And about the hospitals, think about the nursing homes, think about the school drivers. So those are the people who work in all of those fields, you know, taking care of our elderly community, taking care of our children, driving them to school, back and forth.

They are the one in the cafeteria feeding our kids, feeding our community. It's. Wherever you go, that's. That's who you find. 

And as you said, Jordan, those are brave people who are not afraid of waking up early in the morning and go to sleep late at night because they are so devoted, whatever that they find to do, they will do it. So when you have someone like this who has, with all type of danger to finally make it here, they value their job, so they take it seriously.

And for us to turn our back on them, to me, it's really inhuman. And after all, and that's one of the things we always said, after all they've gone through, we must do something to protect them, to support them and to guide them. 

Yeah, I mean, it's so, so disappointing to hear that now that people are already being fired, even though their status has not been revoked yet.

But just the fact that, that it's coming from the Trump administration that they're signaling, then people are already losing their jobs. It's so awful. Just quickly, like, it speaks to the problem of how many institutions, like, complying in advance rather, rather than fight, like, rather than fighting harmful activity, people who are using, particularly those who have more power, who can view that as ways of Gaining more power over things.

Like if it's a boss wanting to get more power over workers by complying in advance rather than actually fighting for the people who, like, boss. The people who have made you successful. That's exactly right.

Well, let me, let me turn this conversation to our healthcare industry here in Massachusetts. So people who follow the podcast will know that last week we did a whole episode on the primary care crisis in Massachusetts that we do not have enough primary care doctors. Many of them are about to retire. Many of them who are not about to retire are totally burned out and can't wait to get out. And we don't have a pipeline coming in and we're like in a huge crisis. 

And, and the other thing that I, I want to just put in my own sort of personal story that during COVID I had a wonderful friend in the Haitian community that I had long conversations with and came to an understanding that most of the people that she knew in her circle, which is many, like, you know, extended family members and also friends, that they, the vast majority of them had at least one member of their household who worked in the healthcare industry, often caring for the elderly.

And they were. Their rates of COVID were. Were wildly higher than the average because of this, that they were in these vulnerable populations that were getting Covid and in these nursing homes that were getting Covid, and everyone's getting Covid, and then they themselves were in multigenerational households.

Anyway, I don't want to go on about what a terrible situation that was and just heartbreaking, but I do want to mention that, you know, we have a primary care crisis and lots of the people who are in the nursing profession are immigrants. Oh, yeah. 

And if we end up losing a large proportion of our nurses at the same time as we're losing, you know, that we do not have enough primary care doctors.  Like, we are in deep doo doo here in Massachusetts. 

I know. And that's what we need everyone to understand.  So what's going on right now is not just going to impact the immigrant themselves. Yeah. It's going to impact every single sector, every single person, wherever you are.

So when you talk about the healthcare crisis, just think, it's not just primary care doctors. We don't have enough technicians, we don't have enough nurses. I mean, in all of the sectors, we don't have enough.

And now here you are. And the good thing is that, Anna, we have a lot of people who are here who held degrees in medicine, you know, in nursing in all of those areas. So I'm glad that right now in Massachusetts, with Miracle addition, this is one of the bill, you know, you know, giving access to those people who have, you know, experience in that field to come and be able to work here.

So for us as immigrants, the healthcare field has always been something that we deeply care because that's part of what we are. We care for each other. And that's the reason why we find a lot of people getting into this field because they want to continue, you know, the caring that they've done for their parents, their elderly.

Because in Haiti, for example, you don't allow people from outside of your community to come and care for your elders. You are, as children, that's what you do. And that's the reason why so many of them are in the healthcare field.

So when you stop this program, you stop their work permit, you're telling this entire kind of world that there is no one who is going to take care of your, of grandma. There's no one who's going to take care of grandpa. There's no one who is going to take care of the sick, the babies, and so on and so forth.

So the impact is so, so big. And that's the reason why I want everyone to pay attention to what's going on right now. It's not just immigrants.

Yes. Let's say that you close the door. All immigrants are gone.

What's going to happen to us? What's going to our economy? What's going to happen to our schools? Just name it. It's all of us. Wow.

So I'm tingling. Hair is tingling. 

You know, I just want to, I just want to follow up on that and say, like, you know, we. Even if you're the most selfish person in the world, like, what happens when you destabilize communities? Because overnight, without any, without any warning, your bus driver is gone. And not just they're gone, but like the money that was in their pocket that used to go to your store, they used to go to help your community.

That's. That's money that's gone. Like, that money leaves with that person.

That was money that was going to you. Right. So it's like.

It's like. It literally is the definition of like, cutting off your nose to spite your face. Yeah, it's just like integral parts of our community, but, like, not just integral parts because.

Oh, it's like a nice thought. Like, even if you're the most selfish person in the world, people are here contributing to your. They are giving you money for service.

Yes. They are giving you services, and they're gone for no good reason. Yes.

And just so you know, it's happening already here in our markets. So right across from. From us, there are a couple of, you know, supermarket, you know, where a number of our people used to go and shop.

So when you have to wait in line to get to the cashier, guess what? Right now, you just go grab yourself and then you're out of the door. So people start feeling what it means even when people are still here. But because of that fear of not going outside, the businesses are starting to feel it.

It's, I mean, to the point a number of people are saying that we have to let our, you know, stop go because we don't have any business. So when I said it's every sector, every single individual. So this is not something for us to just, you know, turn, you know, our eyes on the side and say, it's not about me, it's about all of us, no matter how.

So. Dr. Gabeau, I, I really am so moved by this conversation. It's been one of the more moving. I get outraged by a lot of things, but, like, I'm, like, I'm a little weepy and, and it's really incredible to have you here. 

I have to do this. So here I go. You know, we rely on your donations. If you are listening to this, like, there's a link right below. You can make sure that people like Dr. Gabeau are really able to be heard, that these stories are getting into our progressive community through the podcast.

So go ahead and do that. But I want to return to this discussion and, you know, specifically I would. Are there, Can you just tell us, obviously, totally anonymously, are there a few stories that you might tell about people who have come to you or that you, you know, know of that our listeners might be interested in or that are affecting, you know, the wider community? Just. 

Yeah. So just quick, last, Last. Last weekend on Saturday, we have a music program here. And then the music program is for the kids, you know, mostly immigrant children will come here. And then, because we did a session with parents around New York and then telling.

Trying to educate parents about what to do in case, you know, ice, you know, came to your doors and get you out, whatever. So we do, you know, a lot of educational sessions with parents. So I think one of the parents went and discussed with the child, you know, what could happen in case, you know, there's a raid at the job and so on and so forth, and the child came to one of the music teachers here and Said to the music teacher, would you mind taking me? And the musician said, what do you mean take me? Yeah, take me at your home.

And she was why? She said, yeah, because my mom said I may have to go to work and not come back and we don't have anyone here. So would you be willing to take me if my mom is gone? So I mean, just to tell you, when we said this is deeply, I mean personal, this is heartbreaking to see like a 8 year old girl trying to find someone just in case mom is being deported to take care of her because she doesn't have anyone. And so often people when they come here, they don't even know what Massachusetts, what where Massachusetts is.

So often it's after they, they got here and we said, yeah, you are in Boston. And they said, what? What is Boston? So, so often they have no other family members, you know, to care for them. So they rely on us, you know, they rely on the community that we are building around them for them to feel that they are, they have families, they have, you know, and for a child to be so afraid, for a parent to be so afraid, and then for a child to say, okay, let me help mommy, let me see if I can get some, someone so mommy feel comfortable if mommy is being deported.

So those are real stories, human stories that we are hearing every day. Those who are losing their job, the minute that they lose their job, they come to us, what are we going to do? They just went in an apartment, they rely on that paycheck to pay. So now you say buy, they cannot work, so where are they going to be? In the street.

Right. So it's almost like all the work that we've been putting doing, it's like we are back to square one. So this is, I mean we have to do, you know, self care for our staff because the impact on our staff is incredible.

Because you find them in tears. Yeah. When they come back to me and explain, they are in tears because they feel the pain that families are going through.

The trauma that they've gone through and now it's almost an added trauma to what they have already experienced. So this is real and that's what. If there's one thing that, that I want one of the listeners to hear today is that it's real, it is impacting real human being.

It's not a thing, it's not an immigration, it's like just an issue. It's a real human being issue where people are deeply impacted by what's going on. Yeah.

And I think That's a good point because it can so often be talked about as an abstraction and especially by like so many, so many politicians on the national level will always talk about immigration and like fully abstract ways without any regard for the ways that policies impact people's day to day life. Exactly. The importance of actually highlighting like this is what this, like what this failed policy means for people's everyday lives and the pain, trauma, like, and it's like just like an unnecessary suffering that get, like that get caused because of it.

Yeah. And just to talk about like that you're talking about like cascading trauma of like, you know, even if that parent doesn't get deported. For an eight year old to be so afraid, that's traumatic already.

And then staff that is hearing these stories every single day. Like it takes a toll on the body to be in this kind traumatic hearing these traumatic stories, like day after day after day. Exactly.

You know, and it's. I can just speak from, from my child who, you know, students have stopped showing up and she's like, what's going on? Where are they? Are they okay? Because people are scared to send their kids to school. Exactly.

And, and we have a great policy and our schools are great here. But like what are we doing? Like what are we doing? And I just always want to, to Jonathan's point, like we say immigration, immigration reform, we talk about immigration, we talk about people coming here, but like these are people who are here, who are here. They're human beings.

And it's just so silly. It's like one of my favorite jokes about this is you used to be over there and now you're over here and you want to be over here, but it's. And you used to be over there.

What's the big deal? Like what is, what are we doing right now? And one thing. Want to be here. Great, I want you to be here.

It just makes like we just. And like the destabilization, the inhumanity, the ways in which it hurts our kids, the ways in which it hurts our economy. And over and, and I think it's really important to.

Because we haven't said this over what is essentially just racial, like racism. Right. Like it's this racialized fear.

It's this fear. It might as well be like unnamed black hordes here to hurt you. And that's the way the media plays into it.

It talks about it this way and we lose our humanity, we lose these things. It's just like this. Oh, but what, there's no what about.

They are the People you know, it's the barber, it's the bus driver. There's no hidden people out to get you. But that's the way the media covers it.

That's the way our politicians talk about it is it's very racialized. It's very just like, oh, like there's these dark people out to get you. And of course, that's not the reality.

The reality is it's your. It's your, it's your, It's. It's.

In my case, it's my daughter's classmates. It's somebody's parent. Right.

Sorry. No, Jordan, I would tag what you're just saying there. Like, what's always annoying is when you have people who are like, endorse horrible, horrible immigration policies and then be like, oh, but that's not gonna affect these people that I know because I like these or that they, like, spout xenophobia, but not the ones that I know they're good.

It's like, do you know that the ones you know are also the ones you don't know that other people know? And you scale that up and that's actually everybody. So maybe take a step. Yes.

So we would love to hear from you. What can our listeners do? Who can they call? How can they volunteer? What can they do? I mean, I, I always said the sky is the limit, especially with what's going on right now. There is, I don't think that there is any one individual, if you are really looking at what's going on right now, would not find a way to help and support.

First, keep an eye for your neighbors, people who are around you. Like I said, if you used to see someone at the drugstore, you don't see that person at what's going on, where they are keeping, you know, checking on everyone. I think that's one of the first things that we can do.

Second is being involved, involved, especially around policies. So this past weekend, this past week, Miracle Coalition has done a lot of work around a number of BLS that we need our legislature to vote on to protect our immigrant community. As much as you can call, you know, white letters, get involved, because again, we need each and every one of you to support all of the bills that are going on.

So we have lawyers for civil rights. They put together lawsuit against this ending of tps. So we have a number of advocates.

So. But we need people to rally around them, to support them and also for organization like us. Remember, we are the first one to suffer from all of those executive orders, because when we don't have funding to do the work.

Guess what? We have to close our doors. So again, we need help. We need for people to say it's not just word, but at least, you know, let me send a donation.

Let me come and see if I can help teach an English class, a computer class, or just be an ear for people to just, you know, talk. So there are, are millions of ways for people to get involved and the question is, take a look around you and say, okay, what can I do? And then just, you know, get out and do it. Because it's not just us, it's all of, all of us working together to protect our most vulnerable ones who are now.

And we, we will put the link, if you can send me the link, we'll put the link underneath in the show notes so everybody can see the link to donate to, to IFSI and, and if they can, can they join? Do you guys have an email list that they can Jo. They'll send them like, things that they can work on. Wonderful.

Oh, yes, yes. I just put our website. So when you go to our website, there is ways to get involved and we put like a long list of ways people can get involved because again, there is so much need right now, even thinking about housing, you know, those who are going to lose their, their units, where are they going to sleep, how are we going to support them? So, yeah, the list is very long.

The list is very long. Yes. Well, final words, my friends.

I'm going to go to each of my co hosts and see if you guys have any extra words or questions. Yeah, just that this is an impactful conversation and I appreciate you for having it. Thank you.

I will second that. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much, Dr. Gabeau, for taking time out of your afternoon. Thank you. Thank you.

And again, like I said, when all of us come together in unity, we work together, we show love, we show compassion. At the end of the day, guess what? We are the winners. So let's be winners.

Let's not think about defeat. Because at the end of the day, we have to do what we were called to do, which is to support and to show love and to show compassion. Amazing.

Such inspirational words. Thank you so much. We really appreciate you being here and, and all the work that you do.

And for everyone who is listening, we appreciate you as well. Please forward this onto your friends. This includes incredibly important information and we look forward to seeing you all next week.